Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
Speaking of Dialogues…

Speaking of Dialogues…

Last updated on: October 21, 2009 at 2:59 pm by Matt Talbot

Speaking of Dialogues… 2009-10-21T14:59:11-05:00 Matt Talbot

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

The following is an unedited transcript of an IM conversation I had with fellow contributor Sam Rocha. As you will see, I had no idea when it started that it would become a Vox Nova post, but I thought it might function as both a sort of “mea culpa” and also as food for further discussion.

Matt

Sam – you there?

11:45amSam

yes

11:49amMatt

I’ve posted a couple of things related to the Democratic Party on VN, and I get the sense that you think I’m barking up the wrong tree on that – where am I going wrong, in your view? (I ask sincerely, because I respect your intellect and education…)

11:51amSam

basically, I think that the Democratic Party–and all the political parties in US history (including their presidents!)–fall incredibly short of what we ought to aspire to politcally.

Most would agreee but contend that we have to like something or someone

And here is my objection:

Insofar as we are dominated by the domain of the merely present and real, we lack the ability to aspire for the future and possible.

To me, mainstream politics creates the very conditions under which conversion and deep, cultural change are unimaginable and dangerous

it disciplines us into not imagining what the world we would want would look like in the prsent world

Which is why poets, artist, and theologians are the greatest enemy of status quo politicians, because they create the conditons of a new world, again and agin

11:55amMatt

e.g., MLK jr?

11:56amSam

yes. and Obama noted correctly this fact in the early primary debates: MLK Jr would have not endorsed himself or Clinton because he didn’t see politics under the limitations of partisan imagination

11:56amMatt

I think I agree with what you’re saying…

But my concern is this:

11:58amMatt

For every MLK, you need an LBJ to actually enact, governmentally at least, the demands of justice?

11:59amSam

Yes, here is the problem, as I see it:

12:00pmSam

It then becomes a situation where governmental enactments validate what is possible and real, for MLK freedom was always the case, his struggle was to press the point that unjust law is no law at all.

And in that instance he has a higher appeal to create deep, cultural change than LBJ’s Civil Rights Act

And he did so within politics as well as against it

12:02pmMatt

against it, e.g. his speech where he turned against the War in Vietnam?

12:03pmSam

and even his “I have a Dream Speech” locates the stuggle for freedom within the “bad check” that had been dealt tot he Negro by the govenment

12:04pmMatt

I’m beginning to see the issue, pehaps – aim to be more prophetic than “political”, per se?

12:05pmSam

exactly. and with that we would have to give up the fetish of changing the world via legislation and begin to change it through love

12:06pmMatt

Is there really such a dichotomy, though – didn’t MLK talk about power needing to be “love implementing the demands of justice?”

12:07pmSam

which would not preculde leaving the political realm altogether

Yes.

The dicotomy is false in the world, but the dialectic against pure politics is necessary, I think

12:09pmMatt

Not sure what you mean by “dialectic against pure politics” – I’m not a Philosophy major 😉

12:09pmSam

something like a necessary reversal

the idea that governace and legislation are the limit of “real” change

much like anti-abortion advocates see no “real” activism in feeding the poor

12:11pmSam

or giving everyone free healthcare through progressive taxation

I guess another way to put my critique is this way: Intentions.

12:12pmMatt

As in, what are mine?

12:12pmSam

No party has intention that go beyond their maniacal desire for money and power from donors and the parties let themselves be created acdording to those very same interests

no, the “party’s intentions” I do not question your own…

12:13pmMatt

12:13pmSam

from time to time we may find a person within the party who makes a claim to something bigger than the almighty dollar, but that is literally becoming impossible in election politics

its ALL about fundraising

12:14pmMatt

by the way, I knew I wouldn’t regret tapping your brain – I really appreciate your thoughts!

And yes, it is looking more and more like you describe

He who has the gold makes the rules

12:15pmSam

right. my views come from deeply desiring something completely different–I don’t event trust America, democracy, or liberalism

I am a postmodern theocrat

a conservative leftist

12:17pmMatt

hmm

12:17pmSam

historically and philosophically we have given secular modenity a free pass in status quo politics

it presupposes that this is the world we want

well, I don’t I want a different world–a world not of this world

12:19pmSam

there should be a period at the end of “I don’t.”

12:20pmMatt

I read you – But hasn’t been that a classic excuse for quietism (I know that’s not what you’re doing there)?

I mean…

12:20pmSam

yes, you are quite right

and I am not “quiet”

12:21pmMatt

I read a lot of commentary that “well, war is unfortunate, but what is one to do in a fallen world?”

And that really bothers me

12:22pmSam

and you are very good to be skeptical of this if loses hope, and waits for Christ to come.

12:22pmMatt

Talk about being restricted to the world as it is!

12:22pmSam

But I think that if we take the view that Christ is here and not here we can fight for a better world and refuse to accept it

I think contradiction would be a great way to conduct poltics, its mirrors real life and love more closely

12:24pmMatt

There is a lot of wisdom in that, I think.

When you say “contradiction” – what would that look like in, say, a VN post?

12:25pmSam

Derrida calls this the au venir–to-come

something never “here” but that must be dealt with in temporality–the here and now

12:27pmSam

like Christ himself–always and infinately present but never finished or fully grasped

12:27pmMatt

“Agape demands x: in the context of our current political predicament, that might mean _______.” — like that?

12:28pmSam

Oh, I see. Some thing the following:

12:30pmSam

In the context of our current political predicament we must reject the very idea that this predicament is something that we need to deal with on its own term and redefine it in terms that takes the human person seriously.

12:32pmMatt

Ah! Got it. Awesome feedback – is there a way to save these chats on FB?

12:33pmSam

cut and paste to a word doc, I think

maybe you could post it as a dialogue?

12:34pmMatt

on VN, you mean?

12:34pmSam

sure

it could show them that we actually talk to each other

in ways that are not simply echo chamberish…

12:36pmMatt

What a great idea…I think I will. Thanks again for the feedback.

Matt Talbot

Previous Post

October 21, 2009

What A Sick Story

Next Post

October 22, 2009 Quote of the Week: Jacques Maritain

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category 2019 A Consistent Ethic of Life Aaron Weldon Abortion absurdity Abuse Scandal Academics Adoption Advent Africa agreement/disagreement with Church teaching Alexander Schmemann Alexham Alterity America Amnesty International Anarchism angels Anglicanism Animals Annual Statistics Anthony Anxietas Apocalyptic Apophatic Appalachia Aquinas Art Atheism Atonement Augustine Authority Baptism Beauty Bible biblical criticism biblical scholarship Bioethics Bishops Black Catholics Black Theology Blackadder Blogs Books Breastfeeding Brett Salkeld Buddhism Bush administration Byzantine Catholic Calvinism Canada Canon Law Capital Punishment Capitalism Caryll Houselander Catholic Blog Awards Catholic Blogging Catholic League Catholic Social Teaching Catholic Worker Movement Catholicity CFL Charity Children Chris West Christ and Culture Christian Democracy Christian Unity Christmas Christology Church Church Doctrine Church History Climate Change Cohabitation Colbert Collegiality Communion Communism Comparative Theology Competition Conferences conscience conscience rights Consequentialism Consistent Life Ethics Consumerism Contraception Contrition Conversion Converts Coptic COVID-19 Creation Critical Thinking Cross Cuba Culture Culture of Death Culture of Life Darfur David Cruz-Uribe David Wheeler-Reed Death Death Penalty Democracy Demons Desert Fathers Devil Dialogue dignity Disability Disarmament discernment Discipleship discrimination Dissent Distributism Division Doctrine Domestic Church Dorothy Day Double Effect Doubt Down syndrome Driving Early Church Easter Eastern Churches Ecclesiology Economics Economy Ecumenism Education El Salvador Election Election 2020 Ellul Embryonic Stem Cell Research Empire Energy Enlighenment Environmentalism Ephraim Radner Episcopal Church epistemology Equality Eschatology Ethics Eucharist Europe Euthanasia Evangelization Evil Evolution Excommunication F.X. Durrwell Facism Facts Fair Trade Faith Family Fashion Feddie Feminism Feminist theology Fertility Fetal Rights Fiction Film Finances First Things flags Folk Religion Food Foreign Affairs Forgiveness Frank Sheed Free Speech Freedom gay & lesbian persons Genocide George W. Bush George Weigel Gerald L. Campbell Girard/Mimetic Theory Global Warming Globalization Gnosticism Good Friday Grace Gratitude Greed Grey Cup 2009 Guadalupe Guest Post Guest Posts Gun Control Gustave Martelet Habitat for Humanity Hans Urs von Balthasar Harry Potter Hate Speech Health Health Care Healthcare Heather King Hebrew Bible Henri de Lubac Henry Karlson Herbert McCabe Heresy HHS Mandate Controversy History Holidays Holiness Holy Spirit Homiletics Homily Homosexuality Hope Hospitality How Far Can We Go? How Far Can We Go? Human Person Human Rights Humanae Vitae Humility Humor Hunger Hunting Identity Idolatry Ignacio Ellacuría Imagination Immigration In Memoriam Income Inequality Inculturation Indigenous People Individualism Inklings Intellect Interdependence Internet Interpretation Interviews Introduction Iraq War Islam Israel Jain James Alison James Martin Jazz Jesus Christ Jews Joe Biden Joe Hargrave Johann Baptist Metz John Allen John Henry Newman John Paul II John the Baptist John XXIII Jonathan Josef Pieper Joseph (the husband of Mary) Joseph Bernardin Joseph Ratzinger Josh Brumfield Journals Joy Judgment Just War Justice Kari Lundgren Karl Rahner Katerina Ivanovna Kenya Keynes Kingdom of God Kyle R. Cupp Labor Language Latin America Law Leanne Ogasawara Legion of Christ Leisure Lent Liberalism Liberation Theology Libertarianism Libya Lies Life life & dignity & responsibility of the human person Literature Little Way Liturgical music Liturgical Year Liturgy Living Simply Living Wage Local Church Lombard Lord of the Rings Louis Dupre Love M.Z. Magic Magisterium Mark DeFrancisis Mark Gordon Marriage Martin Luther Martin Luther King Jr. Martyrdom Marxism Mary Masculinity Matt Talbot Matthew Fish Matthew Levering McCain Media Memorial Day Mennonites Mental Illness mercy Michael Iafrate Middle East militarism Miroslav Volf Mitt Romney Modesty Moral Theology Morality Mormonism Morning's Minion Mother Teresa Music Muslims Natalie Nate Wildermuth Nationalism Native Americans Nature Nazis Neuhaus New Evangelization New York City News NFP nihilism Nonviolence Not Abortion Nova's Ordo Nuclear weapons Nuns Obama Occult Old Age Opus Dei Ordination ordination of women original sin Orthodoxy Oscar Romero Other Voices Pacifism Palestine Palin Papacy Papal Peace Messages Papal Social Encyclicals Particular Affections Partisanship Patriotism Paul Paul Ryan Paul VI Peace Pentimento persecution Personalism Phantastes Philosophy PKD Planned Parenthood Pluralism Poetry Policraticus Politcal Apathy Politics Poll Pope Benedict XVI Pope Francis Pope John Paul II Pope Leo XIV Population Postcolonialsim Poverty Power Prayer Preaching Predictions Predictions for 2012 President Barack Obama priestly formation & discernment Pro-Life Progress Prophetic Witness Proportionalism Public Diplomacy Public Policy Question Quotes Rachel Maddow Racism Radical Catholic Mom Radical Catholicism Raymund Schwager Real Catholic TV Real Presence Reconciliation Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Religion religious freedom Responsibility Ressourcement Resurrection Rick Garnett Ridiculous Crap You Never Thought You'd See Robert Barron Roe v. Wade Roman Curia Rome Russia Sacraments Saints Salvation History Sam Harris Sam Rocha Same-sex Marriage Saskatchewan Roughriders Satire School of the Americas Science Scripture Seamless Garment Second Vatican Council Seeing Sex sexual violence Sexuality Sia Sin social justice Social Security Socialism Society of Jesus Sofia Loves Wisdom Solidarity Sophia soteriology Soutenus Spirituality Sports St. Dismas St. Joseph Stanley Hauerwas Statistics Stimulus Suffering Sunday Reflections Supernatural Supreme Court Symbolism Syria Taxing Technology Terrorism The State The Tea Party The Trump Administration Theological Anthropology Theology Theotokos Thomas Merton Throwaway Culture Tim Muldoon Tim Riley Tim Tebow Time Titian Tolkien Torture Toys Trade Traditionalism Transgender Transportation Transubstantiation Trinity Truth TV U.S. Affairs Uncategorized Unions unity among people who disagree US Catholicism USCCB Usury Utilitarianism Utopia Valentine's Day Vatican Vatican II Veterans Vicarious Suffering Video Violence Virgin Mary Vocations Voluntary Associations Voluntary Poverty Voting Vox Nova vox nova blog war War and Peace War Strategy Wealth Weirdness Welfare state Women Women Priests Work Woundedness Youth

Select a Month June 2026 May 2025 February 2025 January 2025 July 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 July 2023 March 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 November 2021 September 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 May 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 May 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 May 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 January 2011 December 2010 November 2010 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 June 2010 May 2010 April 2010 March 2010 February 2010 January 2010 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2009 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 September 2007 August 2007 July 2007 June 2007 May 2007

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz

What did Jesus feed the 5,000 with?

Select your answer to see how you score.

Loaves and fish Bread and wine Figs and water Manna and honey