Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Progressive Christian
More Fun with Karl and Joe

More Fun with Karl and Joe

Last updated on: October 19, 2011 at 5:30 pm by Fred Clark

More Fun with Karl and Joe 2011-10-19T17:30:59-04:00 Fred Clark

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

See Karl.

Karl Giberson and colleague Randall J. Stephens say that the Earth is more than 10,000 years old. They say that humans and dinosaurs did not live together. They say that America’s founders were not evangelical Christians and that Christianity is not established as America’s official religion. They say that heterosexuality is not a choice.

They also say that these aren’t just their opinions. They insist that these are “facts,” and that facts such as these are true whether or not we want them to be.

Rejecting facts, they say, facts supported by evidence and proof, is a rejection of reason.

See Joe.

Joe Carter says this makes Giberson and Stephens “fundamentalists” who “simply outsource [their] thinking to whatever experts have been approved by the New York Times.” Giberson and Stephens, Carter says, have not “bothered to think for themselves (or at least do their homework).”

If they had thought for themselves and done their homework, Carter says, they would have learned that what they regard as facts are matters of dispute and valid contention with no settled answers one way or the other. Giberson and Stephens only think these things are facts, Carter says, because they are not “capable of a rational evaluation of their own biases” and “they are simply parroting the liberal secular line because it will impress readers of the NYT.”

If that sounds a great deal like Charles Fort’s critique of the “priestcraft” of science, that’s because it is. (And if that also sounds like a nasty diatribe written by someone who has forfeited any right to complain about uncharitable readings, that’s because it’s that, too, in a big way.)

Here’s Carter:

According to Giberson and Stephens, you might be an anti-intellectual fundamentalist if you are an evangelical who: dismisses evolution as “an unproven theory”; deny [sic] that “climate change is real and caused by humans”; think[s] that “the founders were evangelicals who intended America to be a Christian nation”; defend[s] spanking children; believe[s] in traditional roles for the sexes; think[s] that reparative therapy can “cure” homosexuality; and/or oppose[s] gay marriage.

Most evangelicals who read that list would agree with some and disagree with others. The responses would vary because most of us evangelicals have been taught to think for themselves.

Carter is trying to muddy the waters there by including the bits about spanking, traditional gender roles and same-sex marriage. Giberson and Stephens don’t argue that these are matters of fact, but they note that many evangelicals who believe in anti-factual claims use those claims to support those positions.

But it remains clear what Carter says there. He says, explicitly, that it is right and good and appropriate to “agree with some and disagree with other” items in that list. He does not suggest that some particular items in the list are rightly agreed with while others are rightly disagreed with.

That only makes sense if these things in this list are not objective facts but merely subjective preferences. That only makes sense if, for any given particular from that list, “agree” and “disagree” are equally valid choices.

That only makes sense if facts and truth are subjective matters of opinion.

Did he say that in those words? No, and I’m sure he doesn’t believe any such thing. But that didn’t stop him from making such logic the cornerstone of his nasty hatchet-job on Giberson and Stephens.

This becomes clearer if we focus on just a single item from Carter’s list. The following paragraph is distilled from Carter’s muddier version. This is not a verbatim quote, but it in no way alters the logic or meaning of his argument in the paragraphs quoted above:

According to Giberson and Stephens, you might be an anti-intellectual fundamentalist if you think that “the founders were evangelicals who intended America to be a Christian nation.” Some evangelicals who read that would agree and some would disagree. The responses would vary because most of us evangelicals have been taught to think for ourselves.

Again, that argument only makes sense if you regard the proposition that “the founders were evangelicals who intended America to be a Christian nation” as something other than a fact — as something that cannot be investigated, examined, looked up, verified or falsified, proved or disproved.

Carter’s argument does not make a lick of sense unless you accept that there is no right or wrong answer, that it is equally valid to agree or disagree.

Now, as it happens, Joe Carter has since assured us that he does believe there is a right and a wrong answer for this particular proposition. He now tells us that he agrees with Giberson and Stephens that the claim that “the founders were evangelicals who intended America to be a Christian nation” is, in fact, false.

Glad to hear it. Glad, but confused. Carter agrees with Giberson and Stephens that Bartonesque history is factually wrong. But he apparently still disagrees with them that clinging to ideas shown to be factually wrong constitutes a rejection of reason.

OK, then. I would try to make sense of that, but one thing I’ve learned today is that if you try to make sense out of Joe Carter’s arguments you’ll wind up being accused of all sorts of awful things.

Previous Post

October 19, 2011

Creationism and Charles Fort's talking dog

Next Post

October 19, 2011 As usual, there's an xkcd for that

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category class warfare evangelicals Iraq Left Behind Mammon music Uncategorized

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 May 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 May 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 May 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 January 2011 December 2010 November 2010 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 June 2010 May 2010 April 2010 March 2010 February 2010 January 2010 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2009 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 September 2007 August 2007 July 2007 June 2007 May 2007 April 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 December 2006 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 January 2006 December 2005 November 2005 October 2005 September 2005 August 2005 July 2005 June 2005 May 2005 April 2005 March 2005 February 2005 January 2005 December 2004 November 2004 October 2004 September 2004 August 2004 July 2004 June 2004 May 2004 April 2004 March 2004 February 2004 January 2004 December 2003 November 2003 October 2003 September 2003

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz

What did Jesus use to wash the disciples’ feet?

Select your answer to see how you score.

A scroll His robe A cup and sponge A towel and basin