Follow-up Interview with Debra Hirsch

Last updated on: May 27, 2015 at 1:06 pm by Rebecca Florence Miller

Follow-up Interview with Debra Hirsch 2015-05-27T13:06:37-06:00 Rebecca Florence Miller

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Earlier this month, I reviewed Debra Hirsch’s helpful book Redeeming Sex. I was left with more questions after reading it, so I approached her to ask for an interview. She was kind enough to reply and offer some further insights.

Rebecca: Can you help my Christian readers understand the idea of communal repentance? Whether in regard to relationships with racial minorities or with the LGBT community, this idea seems to be a sticking point. I’m not sure why but many Christians seem to focus on their own individual actions and think there is no such thing as a collective balance of guilt toward another group of people. This stops people from repenting of our sin as the Christian community and thereby stops reconciliation from happening. Can you help us understand this concept better?
Debra: I think our current context, particularly as it relates to the LGBT community, is a very good reason why a communal apology is appropriate. Research by the Barna Group (and others), shows that our reputation as a church, not necessarily as individuals, is how the public sees us. Our sins are seen and felt as communal, not necessarily individual. Most people don’t take the time to distinguish between “the good, the bad, and the ugly” of Christian behavior. They just lump us all in together. Whether we like it or not, we do represent one another. We might distance ourselves from that “awkward, offensive uncle,” but his behavior still reflects upon the family. And sometimes we have to apologize on his behalf. My husband apologized recently to a group of women on behalf of male leaders within the church. He said sorry for the way many women had been marginalized, or passed over when it came to ministry positions, simply because they were women. The impact of his apology was significant. Many of those present were deeply moved by his words. A simple, but heartfelt “sorry” can go a long way in the process of healing and reconciliation. The prophets did this regularly on behalf of Israel.
Rebecca: I so appreciated your gracious, noncoercive approach to the LGBT community. You rightly spoke to the need to take away conditions for relationship with these folks and the need to control their behavior. Instead, you emphasized the importance of simply introducing people to Jesus and letting Him work in their lives. Still, I found myself wondering: do you think there are times we as Christians do need to intervene and challenge each other? Do you think just trusting God to work in people’s lives is overly optimistic and ignores our human tendency to deceive ourselves (not just in relation to sexuality, but in relation to many other areas of our lives as well)? How can we challenge each other without stigmatizing one area of life more than others? How can we challenge each other lovingly without being control freaks about each other’s lives?

Debra: I believe “challenge” is a necessary part of the life of any disciple, or community of faith. We are called to encourage, rebuke, love, and discipline one another. Challenge can be the catalyst for both growth and maturity. But as with most things, challenging someone works more effectively in the context of a relationship and a covenanted community. I have a little saying that goes like this: “You earn the right to speak into someone’s life, when you’ve learnt to wash their feet.” People will respond to a challenge or rebuke, given in a loving context, way more than from a stranger or place they may feel is hostile.

Rebecca: Finally, what do you do with passages in the New Testament that speak about church discipline (such as Jude, Matthew 18, and I Corinthians 5)? How do you understand these passages in relationship to issues of sexuality?
Debra: I think these texts are vitally important as we consider all issues of discipleship. There may very well come a time in the life of the community where something as radical as what we see in 1 Cor 5 happens. But these are the exception, not the rule. The greater challenge, I think, is not in lowering the bar on discipleship (as many presume), but in actually making the bar more consistent. If we were to apply these standards to everyone that Paul mentions, then a whole lot of us would be excluded. Paul is certainly making a strong point, but it must include both consistency, and also challenge our judgement of non-Christians (v.10). I’m reminded of a Eugene Petersen quote I saw recently, “There’s nobody who doesn’t have problems with the church, because there’s sin in the church. But there’s no other place to be a Christian…”
Rebecca: Do you think Christians should actively advocate for the legalization of gay marriage? Or should we be more neutral? I’m a Christian who does believe, as you do, that gay marriage is wrong in terms of Christian practice. However, I live in a pluralistic society where not everyone believes the same religious beliefs as I do. My approach these days has been to just be neutral. I don’t push an agenda to somehow “protect traditional marriage,” but I also don’t get out there and advocate for gay marriage. Am I being unfair to that democratic society if I don’t advocate for others’ rights to their own beliefs about gay marriage?
Debra: Leslie Newbigin claimed that the best hermeneutic of the gospel was a community that actually lived it. This is certainly a pertinent consideration as Christians consider the issue of gay marriage in broader society. Do we have the moral authority to enter into such a debate? Have our marriages been exemplary that others should follow our way? I have a sneaking suspicion that broader society isn’t really interested in our views on marriage anymore. I understand that this is a complex issue, but I’m still left wondering, why we would feel the need to impose a Christian understanding of marriage onto a society that isn’t necessarily Christian. To expect people to live by the ethics of Jesus, when they don’t even follow Jesus, has always puzzled me, especially given that we ourselves find it hard enough to live by. These are the questions that I ponder when I think of such things.

[Rebecca’s note: I agree with Debra in that last answer, but I think she misunderstood my question. My question was whether as a Christian who believes same-sex marriage is wrong but accepts that a pluralistic society doesn’t need us to force Biblical teaching on those who are not Christians, should I be taking this one step further and actively advocating the legalization of gay marriage for the sake of noncoercion? I’m not there at this point, but I was curious as to her thoughts about this. I have emailed her to further clarify and if I she has time to reply, I will post her reply to the blog.]
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