BuddhistCatholicContemplativeEvangelicalGeneral ChristianHinduJewishLatter-day SaintMuslimNew VisionsProgressive Christian
Beliefs
- Buddhist
- Catholic
- Contemplative
- Evangelical
- General Christian
- Hindu
- Jewish
- Latter-day Saint
- More Voices
- Muslim
- New Visions
- Pagan
- Progressive Christian
Topics
- Religion News
- Food and Religion
- Sports and Religion
- Religious Art
- Religious Music and Entertainment
- Religious Events
- History and Religion
- Style and Religion
- Politics and Religion
- Women in Religion
- Recreation Outdoors and Religion
- Business Finance and Religion
- Careers Workplace and Religion
- Education and Religion
- Family Parenting and Religion
- Health Fitness and Religion
- Home and Religion
- Relationships and Religion
- Technology and Religion
- Travel and Religion
Columnists
- Buddhist Columnists
- Business Finance and Religion Columnists
- Careers Workplace and Religion Columnists
- Catholic Columnists
- Contemplative Columnists
- Education and Religion Columnists
- Evangelists Columnists
- Family Parenting and Religion Columnists
- General Christian Columnists
- Health Fitness and Religion Columnists
- Hindu Columnists
- History and Religion Columnists
- Home and Religion Columnists
- Jewish Columnists
- More Voices Columnists
- Latter Day Columnists
- Muslim Columnists
- New Visions Columnists
- Nonreligious Columnists
- Pagan Columnists
- Politics and Religion Columnists
- Progressive Columnists
- Recreation Outdoors and Religion Columnists
- Relationships and Religion Columnists
- Religion News Columnists
- Religious Art Columnists
- Religious Events Columnists
- Religious Music and Entertainment Columnists
- Sports and Religion Columnists
- Style and Religion Columnists
- Technology and Religion Columnists
- Travel and Religion Columnists
- Women in Religion Columnists
Resource Library
- 2026 Calendar
- Library of World Religions
- The 100 Most Holy Places on Earth
- Patheos Answers
- Podcasts
- Videos
- Faith Leaders Database
- Anglican Episcopalian
- Bahai
- Baptist
- Buddhism
- Christianity
- Confucianism
- Eastern Orthodoxy
- Hinduism
- Holiness and Pentecostal
- ISKCON
- Islam
- Judaism
- Lutheran
- Methodist
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
- New Age
- Paganism
- Presbytarian and Reformed
- Protestantism
- Religion Behind the Scenes
- Roman Catholic
- Scientology
- Shia Islam
- Sikhism
- Sufism
- Sunni Islam
- Taoism
- Zen
- See all religions
Research Tools
Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support
Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support
- Trending:
- Forgiveness
- |
- Marriage
- |
- Consciousness
- |
- Death Penalty
- |
- Election
- |
- Halloween
- Home
- Buddhist
- Fayen’s Two Monks Roll Up the Blinds
Fayen’s Two Monks Roll Up the Blinds
Last updated on: November 1, 2011 at 3:15 pm by James Ford
Fayen’s Two Monks Roll Up the Blinds 2011-11-01T15:15:33-07:00 James Ford
Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.
INTMATE, INTIMATE
Fayen’s Two Monks Roll Up the Blinds
A Dharma Talk
By James Myoun Ford
3 September 2007
The Case: The great Fayen Wenyi took the high seat before the midday meal to preach to his assembly. Raising his hand he pointed to the bamboo blinds. Two monks went and rolled them up in the same manner. Fayen said, ‘One gains; one loses.’ Wumen’s Comment: Tell me, which one gained? Which one lost? If you have the single eye regarding this, you will see where the National Teacher Qingliang failed. But I must warn you most firmly against arguing gain and loss. Wumen’s Verse: When they are rolled up the great sky is bright and clear,/but the great sky still does not match our Way./Why don’t you throw away that sky completely?/Then not a breath of wind will come through.
A couple of years ago I gave a talk on this case. If you’re interested it’s archived at the Boundless Way website. Recently a friend alluded to this case in a conversation and based on what was said, I thought I’d like to give it another go.
First, a reminder about koans and encountering them as a spiritual practice. There is a lot of nonsense written about them. If you’ve been interested in Zen for any length of time, you’ve probably read some of that nonsense, maybe a lot of it. I’m sympathetic to the dilemma. From the outside it’s hard to discern what’s useful and what’s not. And if you’re interested in Zen, it’s hard not to be interested in koans.
Scholars have tackled koans, Zen teachers who practice in non-koan traditions such as “pure Soto” that do not use koan introspection as a normative part of their discipline have written and spoken about koans, people who’ve spent a week or a weekend at a Zen monastic center have written about koans, in fact people who’ve just held a book in their hands once have written about koans. Now, as they say, even a blind pig will occasionally root out a truffle, and it’s hard to find one of these commentators who haven’t gotten some point right.
But koans offer something wonderful. And I encourage those who’ve come here to study the great way, if koans whisper to you, beckon to you on your way; let go of what you’ve learned about them, whether nonsense or not. And instead, come to them with open hands, with open ears, with open hearts.
And from that perspective let’s see what old Fayen has to say.
Fayen Wenyi, called Hogen in Japanese Zen, as I observed in my last talk on this case flourished on the cusp of the ninth and tenth centuries. Those who are fond of history will note he comes at the tail end of the classical period of Chinese Zen, a time rather like our own, rich and dangerous. He originally studied with Changqing Huileng. But, then he encountered Chanqing’s cousin in the dharma, Luohan Guichen, a fateful meeting. Their encounter is the stuff of koans.
Fayen and some companions were caught in a snowstorm and took refuge at Dizang Monastery where the abbot, Luohan Guichen asked Fayen, “What is your journey?” In a Zen context always a dangerous question. How are you doing? Becomes the stuff of life and death. Fayen replied, “Going around on pilgrimage.” Not a bad answer, but not sparkling, either. Dizang, abbots are often known by the name of their temple, pushed a bit further, inquiring, “What do you expect from pilgrimage?” Then Fayen gave the simplest of answers. “I don’t know.” The time was ripe, what in Christian theology is sometimes called kairos, the time of fulfillment. Dizang didn’t even need to pluck the fruit, it was so ripe. Instead he simply blew on it, gently, saying “Not knowing is most intimate.” Fayen understood.
Fayen had his first glimpse of awakening, what Joko Beck calls a small intimation. Nothing special, and at the very same time it’s the gateway to a life of wisdom.
Fayen continued to practice with Dizang and eventually received Dharma transmission from him. At first he taught at Chongshou monastery in Linchuan, then settled at Qingliang Monastery, the name he is often known by, where he taught for the rest of his life. It is said at one point there were more than a thousand monastics in residence there.
He was one of the great ancestors of our way, and stories of his encounters with students and others abound. Andy Ferguson’s magisterial Zen’s Chinese Heritage, an English language Lamp Record (Lamp Records are traditional collections of the sayings and actions of Zen worthies compiled first in Chinese then later in Japanese, Korean, and I’m sure Vietnamese) gives a number.
“A monk asked, ‘What was the style of the ancient Buddha’s?’ Fayen replied ‘Where can it not be completely seen?’” “A monk asked, ‘If someone is seeking an understanding of Buddha, what’s the best path to doing so?’ Fayen replied, ‘It doesn’t pass by here.’” And, of course, “Once, when a monk was visiting Fayen, the old master pointed to a blind. Two monks went to roll it up. Fayen said, ‘One gains, one loss.’”
It is that last question that we consider this evening. It was gathered by Wumen as the twenty-sixth case of his classic collection the Wumenquan, the “Gateless Gate.”
Back to the general matter of koans. They are not meaningless statements designed to rattle you into a state of trans-rational consciousness, as I’ve seen repeated by a number of people. Nor are they questions without answers. There’s always an answer. They’re statements about reality made from the position of one who sees without attachment to form or emptiness. And at the same time they’re an invitation to each of us to stand in that very place.
When we do, the response is immediately obvious. The response will fit the question like a lid to a box. Some will obviously be exactly the same response every time, some will obviously call for a nuanced response based on the immediate situation. Each and every response comes from our seeing we are individual, unique, never to be repeated, and at the same time one thing, the great emptiness, the great boundless, and at the same time not attached to any name or form, or even to that boundless.
Get it?
Perhaps a glimpse? Perhaps not?
It’s worth noting that Aitken Roshi points out the encounter leading to that lovely line not-knowing is most intimate, was just the beginning of Fayen’s journey of awakening. Aitken Roshi points out that later on the same journey that brought Fayen to Daizang’s temple, as Fayen prepared to continue on his pilgrimage, the abbot pointed at a boulder and observed how “many say the Three Worlds exist because the mind and all phenomena arise from recognition. So, tell me, does that boulder exist in the mind or outside?”
Fayen replied “In the mind.” To which Dizang responded, “That stone will soon become very heavy for you to carry around in your mind.” So what if we understand that form and emptiness are identical, as we hear in the Heart Sutra, as a lesson learned in school? What does that matter if we don’t really know it in our bones and marrow? What does it matter if the identity of the world and the boundless are just wise words we hold up as an icon of our faith?
Or, perhaps we have an inkling. It’s not exactly an idea, it is something we feel is true, somehow.
It’s true a taste of water is water. But neither is it diving into the great ocean.
There’s a joke I really like that points to a lot about Zen, and I think it points to something useful about this case. I’ve heard a number of versions, the best one is probably the Jewish one. But I just can’t do Yiddish accents, so forgive the Episcopal version.
The Rector, Father Jones walked into the sanctuary one weekday afternoon, and as he saw the light cascade through the stained glass windows and onto the altar was overcome with emotion. He knelt before the cross, bowed his head and said in a horse voice, barely ore than a whisper, “God, you are everything. I am nothing.” His curate, Ms Smith walked in just behind him and witnessed this. She too felt the power of the moment, the simple beauty of it all, and as she was a good Episcopal assistant minister, knelt just behind the rector, bowed her head and joined with the prayer, “God, you are everything. I am nothing.”
Then Fred the sexton, that’s church-talk for janitor, wandered in, and, he too, felt the waves of the moment. So, well back in the pews, he, too, knelt, bowed his head and prayed, “God, you are everything. I am nothing.”
The two priests looked back and saw Fred. The assistant leaned toward her senior and whispered, “Look who thinks he’s nothing.”
This case is not about right and wrong, good or ill, about self-esteem or self-aggrandizement. It’s a direct pointing to what is real and invites us to respond from that place.
Aitken Roshi pushes the point when he tells us “Ultimately Fayen is not saying merely that gain is gain, loss is loss, high places are high, and low places are low – though this is certainly an overtone of his words. To see into his meaning, you must take gain and loss as the fundamental configuration of the universe, beyond evolution and entropy.”
There’s a pointer.
The Rinzai master Zenkei Shibayama in his comments on this case quotes an unnamed master who tells us “This koan aims to arouse the Great Doubt in the mind of… students. If they were to try to understand the significance of ‘One has it; the other has not’ with their intellect and reasoning, it would be like looking for horns on rabbits and horses.’”
Not that we don’t occasionally stumble upon unicorns. But the miracle of the koan lies within its very ordinariness, its invitation to our immediate, ordinary, right here and now, seeing into what is. Shibayama Roshi first asks “What is the truth of the oneness of the universal Principle and phenomena?” And then he warns us, “Unless you can show me the live fact as your answer, it cannot be Zen.”
One gains, one loses.
Intimate, intimate.
This is the invitation.
Previous Post

September 3, 2007
UU Minister officiates at First Legal Same Sex Marriage in Iowa
Next Post

September 4, 2007 Amazing Grace History/
Browse Our Archives
Select a Category A Christmas Carol Abolitionist African-American Ahmadiyya Alan Watts Aldous Huxley Allen Ginsberg Amedkar Jayanti American politics American Zen Anaheim Zen Sangha Anglican Annie Besant April Fool Armageddon Art and Religion artificial intellegence Atheist Awakening B R Ambedkar Barlaam & Josaphat Beatnik Between Bhagavad Gita Bible biography birthday bodhisattva Bodhisattva Precepts Book burning Book of Common Prayer Book of Mormon Brahmo Samaj Buddha Buddhism Buddhist Buddhist Lord's Prayer Butterflies Calendars cartoons cat ChatGPT Chicken Tortilla Soup choices Christian atheism Christian mysticism Christian origins Christian Science Christian Zen Christianity Christianity and Buddhism christmas Christmas Truce Christopher Isherwood Church of Later Day Saints Cinco de Mayo circus covenant critical thinking culture D. T. Suzuki Dalit Buddhism Daniel Defoe Desert Fathers and Mothers dharma talk Dogen Donald Trump Dongshan's Five Ranks Dorothy Day dream Duty Easter ecology Edwin Arnold emptiness Empty Moon Zen Network Episcopal Church Eternal Now Ethics evolution existentialism Faith fantasy Fathers Day film film review fire Five Ranks Folk music food Form and emptiness Four Seals Francis of Assisi Francis Xavier Free thinker friendship George MacDonald Gerald Heard Glenn Taylor Webb God Good Friday Gospel of Gospel of Mark Gospel of Thomas grace Graduate Theological Unioin Graduate Theological Union Guanyin H R Blyth Hakuin Ekaku Hanamatsuri Hanukkah Harada Yasutani Zen Heart Sutra Henry David Thoreau Hermann Hesse Hinduism History and Religion history of religion Holy Spirit home Hospitality Icon Ides of March Isaac Newton Islam Islamic mysticism Jack Kerouac James Luther Adams Jiddu Krishnamurti Joan of Arc Johannes Gutenberg John Donne joke Judaism justice karma kensho King James Bible koan Koun Yamada Kyoto School Lewis Carrol Liberal Christianity Liberal Religion Life Plan Community Liminal literature Literature and Religion Liturgy Lord's Prayer Love Mahatma Gandhi Mahayana Martin Luther King Jr Mary Baker Eddy Mary Magdelene Mary Oliver Mayflower Compact Meditation memories memory metaphor money money and religioin Mormons Mother's Day movie review mysticism mythic Neighborhood Unitarian Universalist Church New Thought Nichiren Buddhism Nonduality not knowing Omar Khayyam Pacific School of Religion pagan Palm Sunday Passover peace Pentecost perennialism Phantastes Philip Kapleau philosophy Pilgrimage poetry Poetry and Religion politics Prayer Precepts Printing Press prophecy prophetic spirituality psychology Pure Land Queer religion queering religion Quietism Ram Mohan Roy rebirth recipe Relationships and religion religion religion and history Religious syncretism Resistance Retirement Retreat review Rissho Kosei Kai Ritual Robert Aitken Roshi Robert Ingersoll Rohatsu Romani religion Rosie the Riveter saints samadhi SanboZen Sangha Satyagraha science science and reigion science and religion science fiction seminary sermon Sesshin Sex and Religion Shinran Sikh Sikh tradition silence Social Justice Socially Engaged Buddhism Society and religion Soto Zen soul spiritual community spiritual practice Spirituality Sufism Suicide superstition Taoism Television Teresa of Avila Thanksgiving theological schools Theosophy Thomas Merton Time Transcendentalism Transcendentalist Trinitarian Trinity Uncategorized unitarian Unitarian Christianity Unitarian Universalist Universalism Vajrayana Vedanta Walking war Willa Cather William Ellery Channing wisdom women and religion women in religion World Teacher Writing zazen Zen Zen Center Zen inspired retriement zen meditation Zen Precepts Zen women
Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 May 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 May 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 May 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 January 2011 December 2010 November 2010 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 June 2010 May 2010 April 2010 March 2010 February 2010 January 2010 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2009 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 September 2007 August 2007 July 2007 June 2007 May 2007 April 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 December 2006 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006
Follow Us!
TAKE THE
Religious Wisdom Quiz
Who was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind?
Select your answer to see how you score.
Moses Samuel Elijah Elisha
Related posts from Monkey Mind
Recalling the Amazing Alexandra David-Neel
The Great Matter: Walking the Zen Way
Which Is the True Qian? A Koan About...
TRENDING AT PATHEOS Buddhist
From Beginning to End, Scripture Is Pro-Physical Bodies
C. S. Lewis spoke of Christians to whom the body was “‘a...
Michele's Reviews - Get to Work by Jonny...
Get to Work: Seeing Your Daily Grind as God’s Good Gift...
My Journey from Faith to Wholeness by Karl Forehand For those leaving...
Chapter 1, Sarah: The Impossible Choice
Open and Relational Theology & Social Psychology About this series: This series...
Political Gain from Personal Pain is Ungodly
By now, the story has reached the far edges of the internet:...
When Forgiveness Meets Real Life
Written by Dr. David K. Ewen from Eternal Truth Bible College A...
view all Buddhist blogs
Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support
- About Us
- 2026 Calendar
- Videos
- Podcasts
- Library of World Religions
- Faith In Media Tracker
- Advertise With Us
- Write for Us
- Privacy Policy
- Terms of Service
- Do Not Sell My Data
- Contact Us
- Radiant Digital
- Manage Newsletter Subscriptions
- Unsubscribe From Notifications
- Sitemap
Copyright 2008-2026, Patheos. All rights reserved.
Subscription Support Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In











