{"id":30651,"date":"2024-07-10T03:00:48","date_gmt":"2024-07-10T09:00:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/johnbeckett\/?p=30651"},"modified":"2024-07-08T18:05:21","modified_gmt":"2024-07-09T00:05:21","slug":"religious-experience-how-we-know-what-we-know","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/johnbeckett\/2024\/07\/religious-experience-how-we-know-what-we-know.html","title":{"rendered":"Religious Experience \u2013 How We Know What We Know"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

After I reviewed Evangelical blogger Anthony Costello\u2019s new short book The Return of Paganism<\/em><\/a>, Anthony responded on his own blog<\/a>. His response was polite and mostly fair. While I\u2019ve made some comments in an attempt to clarify some of my positions, I haven\u2019t written a full rebuttal, and I\u2019m not likely to do so. We\u2019re already to the point where we have insufficient common ground for an on-going dialogue.<\/p>\n

I do want to use one of his responses as a jumping off point for something I think is relevant for all of us \u2013 Pagan, Christian, or those on any religious or spiritual path. That\u2019s the role of religious experience in epistemology \u2013 how we know what we know.<\/p>\n

In his book, Anthony quotes from Handbook of Contemporary Paganism<\/em>, an academic book from 2009 (that\u2019s priced like an academic book, unfortunately). He relays a story recorded by anthropologist Susan Greenwood of Jo Crow, who participated in an ecstatic event called the \u201cWild Hunt Challenge\u201d in England. Here is Jo Crow\u2019s story:<\/p>\n

Wolf came inside me. It was terrifying. He was right in my face, standing on his hind legs staring at me face to face . . . I smelt his breath; his fangs were dripping. He was going to devour me. He said, \u201cYou have to let me in. You let me in once before.\u201d On another occasion, in a dream I had mated with wolf on a village green. It was an ecstatic and wonderful experience. He showed me this dream and, although I was quivering with terror, I allowed him in. He came behind me and went into me at the base of my neck. I became filled with wolf and went on the Hunt. I ran with the Wild Hunt and I went on the rampage. I was taken by the Hunt.<\/p>\n

When I came off the downs, one guy could see that I was not out of wolf and tried to bring me back. He joined his forehead to mine to try to call me back but wolf came out of me and almost bit his head off. Eventually I went to bed and I still had wolf in me and every time I looked in a mirror I saw wolf. I still had wolf inside me and came back down later. Sometimes he comes as a companion but does not sit inside me. Wolf helps me to walk in two worlds.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

After relaying the story, Anthony said:<\/p>\n

I will let the reader discern for themselves whether they think experiences of this sort are: a) a rational way of knowing whether something is true, and b) whether or not it is even good to pursue such experiences, especially given what we know about the cognitive structures of the mind, and the fragile nature of our mental health.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The questions Anthony asks are fair. But the context in which they\u2019re presented leads toward a presumed answer.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m going to come back to Anthony\u2019s questions. But first, we need to examine the wider topic of religious experiences and what we do with them.<\/p>\n

<\/a><\/p>\n

All religions began with religious experience<\/h2>\n All religions began somewhere. Some \u2013 those called \u201crevealed\u201d religions \u2013 have a specific origin point. An angel spoke to Muhammed and Islam began. The Buddha sat under the Bodhi Tree until he received enlightenment and Buddhism<\/a> began. Wicca has no single moment of birth but it clearly began with the work of Gerald Gardner.<\/p>\n Christianity isn\u2019t quite so clear, but it still has an origin. Some say it began with the teachings of Jesus. Others say it began with the death and resurrection of Jesus. I sometimes say Christianity began with the mystical experience of Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus. Whether these events are historical or mythical is unimportant to us here, even if many Christians consider them of ultimate importance. What\u2019s important to us in this post is that Christianity has an origin. All of these varied and diverse religions began with someone\u2019s experience of something greater than themselves.<\/p>\n Other religions are \u201corganic\u201d religions. They\u2019re the product of thousands of years of life among a particular group of people. Virtually all indigenous religions are organic. So is Hinduism, which is the modern expression of the indigenous religions of India. These religions are so old and have so many sources it is impossible to say exactly where they began. They\u2019re the product of many people having many religious experiences over many years.<\/p>\n Some people object to comparing the foundational events of major world religions to someone they\u2019ve never heard of experiencing Wolf in a facilitated event in the contemporary West. I get it \u2013 foundational events are sacred stories. But at their core, these events are very, very similar. Someone had a spiritual experience of something that overwhelmed them, and was very meaningful to them. The difference is in what came afterwards.<\/p>\n These things happen more often than most of us recognize. Most of them go nowhere. Some of them are life-changing for the people who have them.<\/p>\n And a few change the world.<\/p>\n Experiences are meaningless until we interpret them<\/h2>\n*** ** \u201cI heard this.\u201d \u201cI saw that.\u201d \u201cI felt something I\u2019ve never felt before.\u201d This is what a report of a religious experience looks like. It\u2019s the record of a series of sensory inputs.<\/p>\n ** When I\u2019ve had these experiences, or when I\u2019ve tried to help others make sense of their experiences, the first thing I want to do is to get the raw facts down on paper, before the memories start to fade.<\/p>\n ** Perhaps that really was the Morrigan talking to me. Perhaps it was another human conversation I could barely hear. Perhaps it was my own imagination. What is objectively true is that I heard something, felt something, experienced something.<\/p>\n ** Then I had to figure out what it meant.<\/p>\n ** That\u2019s where the real work begins.<\/p>\n ** Interpretation requires context<\/h2>\n ** A Pagan, a Christian, and an atheist can have the same experience at the same time and they will interpret them in different ways, because they have different fundamental assumptions about the world and the way it works.<\/p>\n ** And being \u201crational\u201d doesn\u2019t mean we default to the atheist\u2019s viewpoint.<\/p>\n ** Are there many Gods, one God, or no Gods? Do spirits come and go, are they limited to one or two places, or are there no such things as spirits? It\u2019s important that we understand our own foundational assumptions, that we make sure they\u2019re reasonable and helpful, and that they\u2019re what we believe is most likely true and not just what we\u2019ve always been told is true.<\/p>\n ** Here\u2019s the question at hand: is religious experience one way of knowing (not the only way and perhaps not even the best way, but one way) or is it simply someone\u2019s imagination running wild?<\/p>\n ** The Protestant, Evangelical, and especially Calvinist Christianity that grew out of the Reformation devalued first-hand religious experience and placed the written word at the top of epistemology. It assumes that your experience is unlikely to be real and may be dangerous, especially if it contradicts a sacred text\u2026 which, of course, is simply the written record of someone else\u2019s experiences.<\/p>\n ** But for most people throughout most of the world throughout most of history, first-hand experience has been appreciated and even treasured.<\/p>\n ** ***For some of us, it still is.<\/p>\n Discernment is always necessary<\/h2>\n Which is not to say that anything goes. Interpreting our experiences always requires discernment<\/a>.<\/p>\n We need knowledge about our own tradition, to understand what symbols and metaphors are trying to communicate, and to help us locate our experience in the context of others. We need knowledge of the human brain, to distinguish imagination from actual experience.<\/p>\n And then we have to do the hard work of pattern matching to figure out exactly who is speaking to us and what they\u2019re trying to say.<\/p>\n It\u2019s not easy. It\u2019s best done in the company of other like-minded people. Those who were there can fill in where your memory may be unreliable, or when you flat-out miss something important. Those who\u2019ve had similar experiences can tell you \u201cyes, that sounds about right\u201d or when necessary \u201cI think you\u2019re going down the wrong path.\u201d They can\u2019t definitively say your interpretations are right or wrong, but they can tell you what others in similar situations have done.<\/p>\n I was present when a Seeress was taken over by Loki<\/a>. What I heard and saw as an observer very closely matched my own experiences with other deities, and my second-hand experiences when others have had them. The fact that all these experiences match gives me confidence they\u2019re real.<\/p>\n Over the years, my own experiences and the experiences of others have proven to be meaningful and helpful, over and over again. So when I hear and see something that \u201csounds about right\u201d I pay attention.<\/p>\n Back to Anthony\u2019s questions<\/h2>\n*** ** I want to go back to the questions Anthony Costello asked and address them directly.<\/p>\n ** He asked is this \u201ca rational way of knowing whether something is true\u201d? That depends on what you mean by \u201crational.\u201d<\/p>\n ** If by \u201crational\u201d you mean that it fits into a materialist worldview, then the answer is no. But in a materialist worldview, Saul of Tarsus\u2019 experience of Jesus is equally invalid, as are the experiences of other foundational figures of the early Church.<\/p>\n ** But in an animist worldview where spirits are real and they can and do communicate with us, then the answer is absolutely yes. This is very rational, because it accurately and meaningfully matches cause and effect.<\/p>\n ** It doesn\u2019t tell us the whole truth. I can\u2019t tell you everything about the Morrigan because I\u2019ve experienced her in ecstatic communion. Maybe I missed something. Maybe I made a mistake in my interpretation.<\/p>\n ** ***But these experiences give us a piece of the truth, and that\u2019s something we can build on.<\/p>\n Ecstatic experience is not safe<\/h2>\n*** ** Anthony\u2019s second question asks \u201cwhether or not it is even good to pursue such experiences, especially given what we know about the cognitive structures of the mind, and the fragile nature of our mental health.\u201d<\/p>\n ** Is it good? Yes, absolutely. The benefits are tremendous, and for religions as a whole (though not necessarily for all practitioners) they are essential \u2013 otherwise the religions become spiritually stagnant.<\/p>\n ** ***Is it safe? Absolutely not.<\/p>\n The Christian tradition is filled with examples of people who had ecstatic experiences and the difficulties \u2013 both spiritual and physical \u2013 those experiences caused. Saint Teresa of Avila<\/a> is one of many.<\/p>\n <\/a> \u201cI saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the point there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God. The pain was so great, that it made me moan; and yet so surpassing was the sweetness of this excessive pain, that I could not wish to be rid of it.\u201d Ecstasy of Saint Teresa<\/em> by Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1647\u201352). Sculpture in the Cornaro chapel in Santa Maria della Vittoria in Rome. Original photo by Livioandronico2013, used under Creative Commons license via Wikimedia Commons<\/a>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n Shamanic practitioners (by which I mean spirit workers in indigenous traditions<\/a>, not suburban Westerners who took Michael Harner\u2019s courses<\/a>) often speak of being \u201cunmade and remade\u201d \u2013 usually with physical injuries and illnesses.<\/p>\n I\u2019ve been OK with ecstatic experiences, but that\u2019s not because I\u2019m special or favored or because I\u2019m doing it right and other people are doing it wrong. I\u2019m simply not allowed to go too far. I\u2019m required to keep one foot firmly in this world, so I can speak reasonably of things our materialist mainstream society considers unreasonable. But I\u2019ve gone deep enough I know this much:<\/p>\n The line between ecstasy and insanity<\/a> is exceedingly thin.<\/p>\n Do anything else if you can. But if you have to do this, nothing else will suffice.<\/p>\n How we know what we know<\/h2>\n***** ** Ecstatic experience is one way of knowing, especially knowing about the Gods.<\/p>\n ** We have an experience, we interpret it, and we try to figure out what it means. We talk to others who\u2019ve had similar experiences, we compare notes, and we see what we can learn from each other.<\/p>\n ** We compare our experience to the lore \u2013 to the stories and traditions of our ancestors. We understand that lore is the record of someone else\u2019s experiences that have stood the test of time. They are treasures, but they are not infallible and they are certainly not intended to be read literally.<\/p>\n ** We understand that we are part of a living tradition \u2013 our Gods speak to us just as they spoke to our ancestors.<\/p>\n ** And then we take what we learn and put it into practice. Does it make our lives more meaningful \u2013 even though it may make them harder? Does it help us deal with the Big Questions of Life? Does it fit into our metaphysics \u2013 our model of the world? In short, does it work?<\/p>\n ** If it doesn\u2019t, we drop it and we try something else.<\/p>\n ** But if it does, we keep doing it.<\/p>\n ** And slowly, step by step, we\u2019re building a modern Pagan polytheist tradition that will do for us what the religions of our ancestors did for them.<\/p>\n ** And that\u2019s a very good thing.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" ** *****An Evangelical blogger asks if ecstatic religious experiences are rational, and if it\u2019s good for us to pursue them. 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