Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Jesus Creed

Home
Evangelical
Tim Keller on Suffering

Tim Keller on Suffering

Last updated on: February 4, 2014 at 12:09 am by Scot McKnight

Tim Keller on Suffering 2014-02-03T22:18:57-06:00 Scot McKnight

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Interview with Tim Keller. David Moore conducted the following interview. Dave blogs at www.twocities.org.

I’ve read quite a bit on the topic of suffering. There are some very good books available, but the ones that simply articulate a “free will” defense leave me empty. There is certainly truth to this line of argument, but it does not answer some of the more vexing issues I’ve struggled with, especially why suffering is so unevenly distributed.

I was somewhat skeptical about reading Walking with God through Pain and Suffering, but the opportunity to interview Tim Keller propelled me forward. Was there really anything new which could be added to our understanding of suffering? I think the answer is yes, and I would highlight three things which make this book an important read.

First, Keller has a healthy aversion to sanctimony and platitudes. He has a low tolerance for simplistic answers. Years of pastoral ministry in the hurly-burly of New York have given him a deep desire to articulate the Christian faith with integrity. Second, Keller’s ability to frame old issues in fresh ways is a hallmark of both his teaching and writing. Last, Keller’s sensitivity to the subject of suffering is fueled by his own experience.

Moore: It is common for people to get tripped up by the conundrum about the impossibility of God being both all-loving and all-powerful. He may be one of the two, but He can’t possibly be both or there would be no suffering. Not surprisingly, God’s wisdom, which changes everything, is always left out of the supposed dilemma.

How can we grow in our confidence of God’s wisdom when we are suffering?

Keller: There are two ways to grow in confidence in God’s wisdom. The first may sound strange—we need to be less confident of our own wisdom. This may be very hard for modern people.

Throughout history, people struggled with suffering and asked God ‘why?’ all the way back to Job. But virtually no one on record thought suffering and evil made God’s existence impossible until the Lisbon earthquake of 1755. Why the change? By the mid-18th century the earliest forms of secularism had begun to develop. In the past it was assumed that if God was infinite and ineffable then his ways would have to be beyond our comprehension. So evil that was inexplicable to us—made perfect sense. If there was a God who created all things—of course he would be infinitely wiser than we are and we could never have the insight to call him on the carpet for how things are going in the world. But the modern belief was that all truth could be discovered by human reason. As we got larger in our own eyes and more sure that we understood how the universe worked, and how history should go, the problem of evil became so intolerable.

But this was all to a great degree because of our own hubris. If we can recapture that bigger view of God and the more realistic view of our own limitations, it would be easier to trust God’s wisdom.

The other way, of course, is to look at the Cross. There we see something that, to the onlookers, appeared to be a defeat. God had abandoned the best hope of the world. How could God bring anything good out of that? But we have the vantage point such that we can get at least a glimpse of the infinite wisdom of the Cross. If God can work his wisdom in suffering like he did in Jesus’ life—he can do it in ours as well.

Moore: As you well know, C.S. Lewis wrote two main books on suffering: The Problem of Pain and A Grief Observed. The former predictably articulates a “free-will” defense for suffering. A Grief Observed is very different. It is like reading the dark and desperate reflections of a friend’s journal. The Problem of Pain has neat and tidy categories. A Grief Observed is messy and unsettling.

I know Lewis has made a significant contribution to your life, so am curious if you recommend both books to suffering people.

Keller: Yes, I recommend either book to suffering people.

The Problem of Pain book has a version of the free-will defense. The free will defense goes something like this. We wouldn’t be free, rational agents who are capable of love is we didn’t have free will. If we were programmed to act in a certain way, we would be robots, not persons. So in order to make us persons God had to risk us mis-using our free will and causing evil.

In the end, I don’t think it is sufficient as an explanation for why God allows evil. I mention this in my book and I give my reasons. We don’t allow our own children free will if they are going to hurt themselves with it. And in heaven, we will not be able so sin, but that doesn’t mean we won’t be able to love or that we will be robots. God is a person—indeed he consists of three persons—and he cannot lie, the Bible says. Does that make him a non-person? No. So I think the free will defense in the end isn’t sufficient.

But I’d still recommend The Problem of Pain, because, a) the free will defense does provide a partial explanation, b) the rest of the book is wonderful, especially the descriptions of heaven, c) Lewis’ prose is luminous and always a joy to read.

Moore: I think we could do a much better job of taking the world by the throat and demanding (in a gracious manner of course!) how its philosophy is preferable to Christianity. You do a good job of demonstrating the bankrupt nature of secular materialism in having anything important to offer suffering people.

Given the hollow answers skepticism offers to those who suffer, how do you conduct funerals for those outside the Christian faith?

Keller: Funerals are not for the dead person—they are for the man or woman’s family and friends. So I speak about the person’s gifts and virtues with thankfulness and admiration. And then I read lots of Scripture pointing to the Christian hope of heaven and the resurrection as the only way we can face the inevitability of death. I don’t speculate about the spiritual condition of the departed, but few people at a funeral are thinking about that anyway. They are wondering about their own death—and that’s where I can show them, as you say, the bankruptcy of secular materialism at such a time.

Moore: I have read four of your books (The Reason for God, Counterfeit God, Every Good Endeavor, and this one). Though they are very different books, I noticed that all four cite Andrew Delbanco’s, The Real American Dream: a Mediation on Hope. Why is that book so formative to your thinking?

Keller: It is a terrific analysis of contemporary American culture, put into the context of American history. Delbanco says that American cultural history has had three phases—each one centering on one high priority. He lists them: “God. Nation. Self.” I don’t think you can improve on the simplicity and penetration of that analysis.

I don’t think his book is necessarily more formative than any other book to my thinking, but it is so broadly applicable—to psychology, vocation, politics, sexuality, religion, or whatever. That’s why it’s hard not to cite it, no matter what the subject.

Moore: Since we are talking about reading, would you give us an idea of the following: how many books do you give a careful read per year, what is your note taking system like (marginalia in the text, highlighting, creating your own index, filing for research, etc.) and how do you determine what you will read?

Keller: I don’t know exactly, but I probably read carefully 30-50 books (depending on the length) and skim the same number. My ‘system’ is to underline and put notes in the margin of the physical book. Then when I go back to the book I can grasp the main points and take-aways of it in a few minutes.

I read what interests me, though once I read Book A it almost always leads to reading other Books B and C and D in the same area of study because of the footnotes and citations I discovered in Book A.

Moore: Job was not aware that the origins of his suffering were due to a challenge taking place in the heavenlies. None of us can know for sure right now, but do you think there could be people today whose suffering like Job’s is a demonstration to the heavenly realm?

Keller: Yes. It may be Jesus was saying in John 9 that the man born blind was experiencing a kind of suffering that was similar to Job. Not that he mentions ‘spiritual warfare’ but he does say the man’s blindness was in order that Jesus could heal him and show God’s glory.

Moore: Many understand the final chapters of Job to be showcasing the impatience of God. God is finally fed up with Job’s silly questions. God puts Job in his proper place. He is God after all.

You see a grace operative in those final chapters, don’t you?

Keller: Of course. If God was being cranky and angry with Job, there would have been no Job left. Most commentators see lots of grace in those chapters.

First, it’s astonishing grace that the great God of the universe would actually show up and talk to Job. Second, it’s astonishing grace that he does not smite Job for his impertinence. This is something like Jesus showing up for Thomas. Thomas says he won’t believe unless he sees the nail prints in his hands and the wound in his side. Jesus appears but does not say, “how dare you question me?” Jesus actually offers Thomas his hands and side. And yet there is a rebuke, “Stop doubting and believe.” So there is both a gentleness and a rebuke.

God is doing the same thing here. He is being incredibly patient to show up and spend all this time addressing the doubts and questions of one human being. And yet, of course, God is also rebuking Job for trying to understand what he cannot and calling God to account.

Moore: Our culture constantly tells us “it is bad to feel bad.”

How do you counsel people who are anxious and depressed, especially when the consuming desire is simply to start feeling better. Also, do you encourage people taking drugs of any sort as a part of their healing?

Keller: That’s a huge subject—the last third of the book is devoted to this. I spend so much time on it because there are not simple answers. You must not force yourself to feel good too quickly—there are lessons to be learned and insights into life and your heart to be grasped. Also grief and anger can’t just be denied or stuffed, they need to be worked through with meditation, reflection, and prayer.

And yet you must not, on the other hand, allow yourself to get stuck in grief and sorrow. Simone Weil talks about the temptation to become ‘complicit’ with pain and suffering, to semi-consciously decide to stay in it, because it is more painful to get on with life than to stay swamped with your problems.

Medication may or may not be appropriate. That must be considered on a case by case basis.

Moore: What encourages one person who is suffering may discourage another. You do a nice job of reminding of this reality. How can we better develop sensitivity that people truly are wired differently?

Keller: I don’t know! It’s not just a problem when it comes to ministry to the suffering. People also come to faith differently. We live in a very technique driven society (see Ellul’s The Technological Society). We don’t want insights and principles that are applied differently. We want ‘action steps’ and ‘how-tos’. It’s a problem, absolutely. I don’t know what to do about it. My contribution was to write a long book on the subject that doesn’t break down things very well into neat steps.

Moore: On the other side of the spectrum, there are some things which a suffering person may need to hear which are not immediately encouraging. How do we grow in our discernment to know if there is anything difficult to share with a close friend going through deep waters?

Keller: There are many things to share with a close friend going through deep waters. I list them at the very end of the book. But almost never do you lay those things on the person immediately. And seldom in the same order, and never in the same way.

Uncategorized

Previous Post

February 3, 2014

World Vision and Losing Super Bowl Team T-Shirts

Next Post

February 4, 2014 More Than Just Genes and Neurons (RJS)

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category Acts of the Apostles Adam Advent Anabaptism Angels Anglican Apologetics Atonement Baptism BCP Prayers Bible Biblical Studies Birds Blogging Bloglossary Bonhoeffer Books Calvinism Christianity Church Church History Coffee Colossians Commentary Recs Conversion Creation Creeds Culture Death Ecclesiastes Economics Education Embracing Grace Emergent Emerging Movement Eschatology Essays Ethics Eucharist Evangelicalism Family Fasting Fathers Fellowship of Differents Footsteps Tour Fun and Whimsical Gospel Grace Happiness Heaven Hell Holy Spirit Irenaeus James Jesus Jesus Creed Job Justification Kingdom of God Law Lectures Lent Liberalism Love and Marriage Mabanteneni Manhood Mary Miracles Missio Alliance MissioLife Missional Missional Jesus Movies and Film New Perspective Northern Seminary OneLife Origins Project Orthodox Parables Pastor's Spouse Pastoring and Leading Pastoring and Preaching Patristics Paul Paul-John Tour Pharisees Pietism Political Theology Prayer and Formation Preaching Problems for Faith Psalm 119 Psalms Public Issues Purgatory Religions Resurrection Revelation Romans Rule of JCreed Science and Faith Sermon on the Mount Sports Ten Commandments Theology Third Way Top Ten Lists Translations Uncategorized Universalism University Ministry Way Out Weekly Meanderings Wisdom Women and Ministry Work Worship Writing & Blogging Youth Ministry

Select a Month July 2021 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 May 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 May 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 May 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 January 2011 December 2010 November 2010 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 June 2010 May 2010 April 2010 March 2010 February 2010 January 2010 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2009 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 September 2007 August 2007 July 2007 June 2007 May 2007 April 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 December 2006 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 January 2006 December 2005 November 2005 October 2005 September 2005 August 2005 July 2005 June 2005 May 2005 April 2005 0000

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz

In 1 Peter, what did the prophets search intently and with great care about?

Select your answer to see how you score.

The day of the Lord The salvation of Israel The end times The sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow