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Debate #2: please make it stop!

Debate #2: please make it stop!

Last updated on: October 10, 2016 at 7:31 am by Jane the Actuary

Debate #2: please make it stop! 2016-10-10T07:31:27-06:00 Jane the Actuary

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Oh, wow, was this painful — especially as it startedout. I cringed when Trump sniffled; the first time I could excuse this as an incipient cold, but now, it’s got to be something else entirely. A nervous tic? And he rambled, and didn’t answer the questions, and he aggressively interrupted Clinton, and just would not let the moderator move on to the next question. And his debate prep seemed to have consisted of half-memorized statistics, that he threw in whether they were on topic or not. It was terrible, it was painful to watch. And my husband observed, “he seems like he hasn’t slept in days.”

Of course, Hillary changed the subject when it suited her as well, but, my G_d, at least she was a professional!

And what was up with that tie?, too long, as if he made a mistake in tying it, and no one could tell him, and he couldn’t adjust it before the filming started, and maybe he was too sleep-deprived to manage even this basic item.

So here are my notes, in the form of a live-blog, even though this was actually scrawled onto a notepad at the time, so please excuse any errors, and note that quotes are how I wrote them down, not guaranteed and sometimes paraphrased, and will likely differ from any official transcript:

Q1: are you modelling appropriate behavior for children when the accusations at the last debate were “MA”-rated?

Clinton took that as, “Please make an opening statement,” and she started with her opening statement, “I will work with every American” and I will “heal our country.”

Trump: he started with “I agree,” and “when I started this campaign, it was because of all of the foolish things that are happening in this country” – and then he started rambling on about Obamacare, and the Iran deal, and on and on and make it stop! and he sniffled – give the man a tissue!

The moderator, follow-up, referencing the tape, “you bragged that you sexually assaulted women.”

Trump: I apologized, I’m not proud of it, but when you’re having horrible things happen and ISIS!, we need to talk about more important things.

Moderator: do you deny having done the things you’re on tape talking about?

Trump: Yes, I deny it.

Clinton: Other candidates I have disagreed with, but Donald is the first one who is unfit to serve. (Watch for it: memorized off-topic line here) America already is great because America is good, we will respect each other and respect our diversity.

Trump: it’s just words. (I think he meant to be claiming that he didn’t actually do anything and all it shows is that he made exaggerated, crude claims.)

Moderator: cuts him off, asks, “you say you’ve changed, but exactly how did your campaign change you?” Which was a bad question, but Trump could have used it as a springboard to a plug for his evangelical advisors, his faith, etc. But he didn’t. Instead:

Trump: I’m not proud, but Bill Clinton was “far worse,” and “there’s never been anyone in the history of politics” who treated women so badly. And then he mentions the rapist of a 12 year old and claims HRC on tape as laughing about her success in getting him off.

Clinton: Trump never apologizes – not to the Khans, not to the Mexican-ancestry judge, not to the reporter he mocked, not for the racist Birther lie.

Trump: But Blumenthal started Birtherism, and something about Michelle Obama saying mean things about Clinton in 2008, and HRC should apologize for the 33,000 e-mails she deleted, and if I am elected, I will instruct the attorney general to name a special prosecutor for this case, and the 33,000 e-mails deleted after a supoena was issued.

HRC: everything he said is false, go to my website to see.

Moderator: speaking of e-mails, Comey said you were extremely careless.

HRC: yes, I made a mistake and said I’m sorry, but there’s no proof that the server was hacked, and there’s no proof that anyone got any classified e-mails.

Then Trump says something very goofy — why don’t you ask her about the e-mails, and the moderator says, I just did!

Next question — a policy question — yay! –

Q2: the Affordable Care Act isn’t affordable; how will you fix it?

Clinton: I’m going to fix it, I have a plan, but remember all the great things Obamacare does: 20 million newly insured, no pre-existing condition restrictions, no lifetime maximum, no sex-differentiated premiums, defining “adult” as age 26; we need to get costs down but can’t just start over.

Trump: Great question; Obamacare is a disaster, and only getting worse, rates, deductibles going up. The Democrats method of fixing it is to just spend more money, but we will get rid of the “lines” that give insurance companies monopolies.

Moderator, to Clinton: your husband said Obamacare is a disaster.

Clinton: if we started over again, we’d have a different system (does she mean single-payer?), but if we rip up Obamacare, the insurance companies would just start taking advantage of people again.

Moderator, to Trump: how will you make insurance available?

Trump: it’s going to be cheaper because we’ll have so much competition.

Moderator: what about pre-existing conditons?

Trump: [I have no idea what he meant to say here; it was garbled.] And we are going to block-grant Medicaid.

Q3: How will you help Muslims affected by Islamophobia?

Trump: in San Bernardino, people saw the bombs but didn’t report it. And we have to repeat the name Radical Islamic Terrorism over and over again.

Clinton: we have to be nice to Muslims so that we can defeat ISIS in coalition with Muslim countries.

Moderator: In December, you called for moratorium, now Pence said that’s no longer your position. Explain.

Trump: Khan is an American hero, and he wouldn’t have died because I wouldn’t have gone to Iraq. And my ban is now an extreme vetting. (Moderator claims he’s not answering the question, when he actually is; perhaps she was just conditioned to expect differently.) There are people coming into the country that we don’t know anything about.

Moderator, to Clinton: why bring so many refugees in if you can’t vet?

Clinton: because of the poor, suffering children. We cannot ban people because of a religion (she didn’t seem to recognize Trump’s retraction just before), and this is the 10th or 12th time he’s denied having supported the war but we can prove otherwise.

Trump: We’ve had criminals coming in who we can’t deport. (I think he was referring to the issue of criminal aliens whose home countries won’t accept their return; the government is supposed to press, by refusing to issue visas for nationals of these countries, but instead just shrugs and releases them back into the US after they’ve served their prison terms.) “We are letting people into this country that are going to cause problems like you’ve never seen.”

Moderator, to Clinton, question submitted online: Wikileaks revealed that you said “you need both a public and private position,” is it OK to be two-faced?

Clinton: I was really just talking about Lincoln’s strategy as portrayed in the movie. (No further interest in saying, “of course, the policies that I’ve advocated are what I really believe.”) Then she turns it around: the Wikileaks leaks show that Putin is trying to influence the election, or, more specifically, trying to get Trump elected, and Trump should release his tax returns (that is, because of claims that this’ll reveal secret business dealings with the Russkies).

Trump: I don’t know Putin, we don’t know that it was Russia, she’s just trying to tarnish me. I don’t have loans from Russia, and the feds wouldn’t have selected me for the Old Post Office if there were problems with my balance sheet. I also pay 100s of millions in taxes, and I took the same deductions as Soros and all her other billionaire donors.

New Q, asked by an “undecided voter”: What tax provisions will you change to ensure wealthy Americans pay their fair share?

Trump: I’d eliminate the carried interest provision. Hillary didn’t change this already because her wealthy friends benefit. Then he lists the rest of his platform: cutting corporate taxes from 35% to 15%, cutting taxes big league for the middle class, and claims that HRC will raise taxes for the middle class, and claims that “taxes are about the highest in the world.” (And, incidentally, I’m not going to fact-check this right now, but one thing no one seems to mention is that you can’t compare federal income tax rates and be done with it — every one else has a VAT, but they don’t have the same kinds of local sales taxes and property taxes and state/local income taxes as we do.)

Clinton: Nothing Trump said is true, and he hasn’t paid federal income taxes in 20 years, and would enact a massive tax cut for the wealthy and would raise taxes for the middle class. In my plan, no one with income less than 200K would see a tax hike, there would be extra taxes for those earning > 500,000. And did I mention that Trump paid $0, $0, $0, $0, and that’s wrong.

Moderator: viewers, the context is a report that Trump reported a 900 million loss. Qustion, to Trump: did you use the loss to avoid paying taxes?

Trump: yes, but so did all of Clinton’s mega-rich donors, which is why she didn’t do anything about this already. She has bad judgement: look at Libya, Syria, Iraq.

Clinton: I am in favor of getting rid of carried interest, but was powerless to do so as a Senator, because Bush would have vetoed. And I have a 30 year record of doing great things, like the Children’s Health Insurance Program and passing a law helping first responders, and a law that requires better dosing for children’s medicines, and I advocated for women as Secretary of State and I co-sponsored 400 pieces of legislation (yeah, sure, insofar as any legislator can just attach their name to any piece of legislation and call themselves a “co-sponsor”), and I’m bipartisan and have produced results.

New Q, from online, or maybe a voter at the town hall: What would you do about Aleppo? Is it like the Holocaust, and will the U.S. have waited too long?

Clinton: Russia is “all-in” (and, by the way, he’s supporting Trump), but I would stand up to Putin, and we need a no-fly zone (would she really shoot down Russian planes? Really?)

Trump: Obama’s line in the sand was laughed at. HRC talks tough, but the rebels end up being worse.

Moderator, to Trump: What would you do about the humanitarian crisis? Pence said we should bomb Syrian military targets.

Trump: I disagree with Pence, we have to focus on ISIS, and can’t get involved with Assad.

Mod: and if Aleppo falls?

Trump: It has basically fallen already. (I assume this to mean that he thinks the “answer,” such as it is, to the crisis, is that when Assad’s forces fully overrun Aleppo, the bombing will end.) Then: we should also have had a sneak attack on Mosul rather than announcing to them we’d start fighting there.

Moderator: Sometimes there are strategic, psychological reasons for announcing. (This was odd – why did she jump in?)

Moderator, to HRC: Would you use US forces against Assad?

HRC: No, I wouldn’t use ground troops. Oh, except special forces, but they don’t count (I guess).

Moderator pushes. What then, specifically?

Clinton: Well, I hope ISIS will be out of Iraq by the time I take office. Oh, and I’d consider arming the Kurds.

Q: can you be a devoted president to all the people?

Trump: Yes, trade deals were bad for everybody and I’d fix that. The poverty rate for African-Americans in the inner city is 45%, and jobs are non-existent. She’s all talk and doesn’t get it done. (Frankly, this method of saying, “she hasn’t gotten anything done,” is a bit odd when it’s not just a matter of foreign policy screw-ups while Secretary of State, but this claim that, as U.S. Senator or First Lady, she should have solved poverty in Detroit by now. You’d think that he’d at least have the sense to say that “her party” hasn’t gotten it done, but I guess Trump is too focused on the personal to do that.)

Clinton: I’m proud that I was re-elected with a 67% margin. I have tried to help children and families my entire life. And “many people are worried they won’t have a place in Donald Trump’s America.” Fear, bullying is up, the “Trump effect.”

Moderator: you called half of Trump’s supporters “deplorables”– how can you unite a country if you call them deplorable?

Clinton: I said I was sorry. And by the way, Trump has said mean things.

Trump: HRC “has hate in her heart.” She’s called people “irredeemable.”

Moderator: Donald Trump’s business advice is “the most important characteristic is discipline.” Is your 3 AM tweet reflective of the discipline of a good leader?

Trump: Tweeting is a modern form of communication. And, by the way, Clinton had a “3 AM call” in Benghazi, when she ignored 600 calls for help, and only responded to Blumenthal.

Clinton: No, Trump doesn’t have discipline. Then she jumps into some off-topic self-praise, that her husband created a surplus as president.

New Q: What are the most important aspects for a Supreme Court justice?

Clinton: to have “real-life experience” and “understand what people are up against.” Then she lists litmus tests: reverse Citizens United, support Roe v. Wade and marriage equality; change balance of court against corporate balance.

Trump: I would appoint the reincarnations of Scalia. Also, I am spending my own money, so that I am less obligated to other donors as I would otherwise be; Clinton has tons of money, so she should do this, too.

Q: boring question on energy policy that I won’t further describe.

Final question: name something you respect about your opponent.

Clinton: I respect his children (first this seems like a way of avoiding saying something nice about Trump; but then:) it says a lot about him.

Trump: She doesn’t quit, she doesn’t give up, she’s a fighter.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the end of the town hall-style debate.

But these notes don’t really give you the full picture.

It was extremely painful to watch Trump — not just the sniffling, but, what’s worse, always having to respond, never just letting something be, talking past the moderator as she says, “it’s time to move on.” Repeatedly. And not in a “wait – she said something scurrilous that I have to reply to” manner, but just because he seemed incapable of letting it go, and recognizing that he simply can’t always have the last word in this forum.

Both of them had their moments of “I said I was sorry, can’t you just shut up about it already?” — Trump regarding the taped comments, Clinton regarding the e-mails and the “deplorables” comment. Both had their non-sequitors: Clinton deflecting to the Russians, and Trump to ISIS. Trump’s game of saying, “Hillary’s had 30 years to fix X” is exceedingly strange. And there were so many times when I wanted to say, “Make it stop! Please make it stop!” and was very tempted to walk away.

And if this was supposed to be Trump’s moment to show everyone questioning their support for him that we as up to the task, well, he failed, big league.

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