Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Evangelical
Politics and Religion
Blog arguments

Blog arguments

Last updated on: October 14, 2010 at 5:55 am by Gene Veith

0 Comments

Blog arguments 2010-10-14T05:55:34-04:00 Gene Veith

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Friends, way back on September 28–that’s last month, 16 days ago–I posted about our pastor’s sermon on a parable: The Rich Man & Lazarus | Cranach: The Blog of Veith. That innocent little post has now chalked up a record 422 comments at last count. What happened is that a very heated debate broke out between Lutherans and non-Lutherans on the true meaning of John 20:23. Before long, Luther was getting bashed, and non-Lutherans were getting bashed, and feelings were getting hurt on both sides. Then, at about comment #359, people started talking about ME, taking me to task for allowing unkind things being said on my blog. I should not allow certain things to be said. I should establish a code of conduct, require registration, moderate comments, monitor what people say, and delete negative remarks.

I actually do delete some comments when they go far over the line, but I can’t monitor everything that is said, especially what is said on posts from a month ago. And in principle, I value open and free discussion. That becomes impossible if people insist on silencing their opponents. In general, this blog has the reputation of having a higher level of discourse than other blogs, a reputation I don’t want to lose. At the same time, there seems to be some misunderstandings. So I will offer some thoughts:

(1) The word “argument” has become a synonym for “fight.” (As in, “He had an argument with his wife.”) That shows the decay of contemporary argumentation. An argument is supposed to be a train of thought that leads to persuasion. The goal of an argument is not to score points but to win over your opponent to your way of thinking. An effective argument ends in agreement.

When you insult, mock, name call, or otherwise make your opponent angry, you will never win the argument. That is, you will never persuade your opponent. Instead, you will make him or her “defensive,” as we say, and from behind that defensive bunker, your opponent will never surrender, no matter how good your logic and evidence may be. So mean and vicious and hurtful remarks are simply counterproductive. I shouldn’t have to ban them. They are the equivalent of an admission of defeat.

In the current case, both sides were giving as good as they got. At the same time, it is unfair to zap your opponent, and then get all upset when you get zapped in return! Again, both sides were doing that.

(2) Ah, but Jesus called the Pharisees a “brood of vipers.” If Jesus can call people names, I can too. No, Jesus spoke as one with authority, and not as one of their scribes. We are not Jesus and lack His authority. We are scribes.

When I read that passage, I do confess and feel that I am a viper. Some people do bear God’s authority by virtue of their vocation. When I am castigated by my pastor, or parents, or boss, or the police officer who caught me breaking the law, they do have the calling to deal with me and I take their words to heart. When someone without that calling castigates me, it does not convict me but only makes me angry.

(3) Ah, but we must proclaim the Law to convict people of sin! First of all, not all disputes involve moral failure. But, setting that aside, applying the Law is far more involved than just calling people bad names or even saying they will go to Hell. Applying the theological use of the Law means holding up God’s Law as a mirror so that people will see themselves and their sin, provoking repentance and then a turning to Christ, to the Gospel which also must be proclaimed. But if the person you are attacking does not see his sin, but rather is provoked into self-righteous indignation, you have failed to apply the Law successfully. Preaching the Law is more like surgery than beating with a blunt instrument, which is why Luther and Walther call the ability to apply and to distinguish Law and Gospel is the highest art.

(4) It is good to hold discussions with people whom we do not agree with. We have a tendency to only talk with people like ourselves (Lutherans with Lutherans, Christians with Christians, conservatives with conservatives, liberals with liberals). But if we ever want to, again, win anyone over to our side, we need practice talking with those who do not believe as we do.

One of the great strengths of this blog is that it attracts–how, I don’t really know–people of many different views. I loved it when that Muslim guy joined in recently, stating his objections to Christianity, which many of you–including diehard opponents usually–joined together to defend. I’m glad to have the “spiritual but not religious” Bunnycatch3r here. And the whole gamut of Christian theologies. And the atheists who chime in. Don’t you see how good that is?

The old record for most comments was held by a series of posts involving Michael the atheist. You commenters, for the most part, treated him with great gentleness. And do you remember how he said, at one point, something to the effect that this blog was his support group! I don’t think we came to an agreement with him before he stopped posting, but who knows what might have happened to him since then and what part some of you might have played in his life? If I excluded him or deleted his negative comments about Christianity, or if you just resorted to calling him names or got all offended at his very presence, the opportunity to talk with him seriously about Christ would never have happened.

So, in conclusion, I’ve got to trust you, and I do. Learn how to argue. Don’t have a thin skin. Talk with people you don’t agree with. Try to win each other over. Realize that we have in common both the wretchedness of our sin and the forgiveness of our Savior.

Blog

argumentation

Previous Post

October 14, 2010

Out of the depths

Next Post

October 15, 2010 Latest marriage findings

Recent Comments

0 | Leave a Comment

"While she worked for Trump she was a tool's tool!"

reg

Luther on Tools

"I know wired earbuds are making a comeback (I never stopped using them as I ..."

reg

Luther on Tools

"VCRs, tape decks, and cassette players are all having a revival among a segment of ..."

Tom Hering

Luther on Tools

"As a (retired) lawyer I see potential liability from sharing things like power or sharp ..."

reg

Luther on Tools

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category America Apologetics Art baseball Bible Blog Christ Church crime Culture Economics Education Ethics Family Food Football Government History Holidays Holy Week Humor International Islam Language Law Life Issues Literature Media Medicine Movies Music Nature News Personal Philosophy Politics psychology Reformation Religions Sacraments Science sex Social Science Sports technology television terrorism Theology Uncategorized Vocation war

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 May 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 May 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 May 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 January 2011 December 2010 November 2010 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 June 2010 May 2010 April 2010 March 2010 February 2010 January 2010 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2009 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz

Who said, 'Let my people go'?

Select your answer to see how you score.

Moses Elijah Joshua Aaron

Books by This Author Books by Gene Veith

See All Titles »