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CARM Forum Wrong About Biblical Prayer to Creatures

CARM Forum Wrong About Biblical Prayer to Creatures

Last updated on: November 21, 2024 at 10:33 am by Dave Armstrong

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CARM Forum Wrong About Biblical Prayer to Creatures 2024-11-21T10:33:08-04:00 Dave Armstrong

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Five Biblical Examples Provided

Photo credit: The Shade of Samuel Appears to Saul (1668), by Salvator Rosa (1615-1673) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

CARM is a huge online forum that is dominated by the extreme anti-Catholic form of Protestantism. In its “Roman Catholicism” sub-forum, the discussion topic and thread, “Why not just go straight to Jesus in prayer?” began on 25 October 2024. In it, a number of false claims about what the Bible teaches or supposedly never teaches are made. I will prove that the statements are false at the end by producing five scriptural examples that many of these folks claim don’t exist. Will they follow inspired, inerrant, infallible revelation wherever it leads?

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I have dealt with the topic, broadly speaking, many times:

Biblical Evidence for Prayers of the Righteous Having More Power [3-23-11]

Why the Bible Says the Prayers of Holy People Are More Powerful [National Catholic Register, 3-19-19]

Bible on Praying Straight to God (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [9-21-22]

Bible on the Power of Prayers of the Righteous [11-16-22]

Bible on Seeking Exceptionally Righteous Intercessors (vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [11-9-24]

But specifically in this thread, its repeatedly asserted that the Bible never references prayer to anyone but God (citations of instances of this follow).

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Nondenom40: your church also advocates praying to anyone else doesn’t it? One you will find in the bible, one you won’t. Guess which is which?

Nothing in the bible, not one thing indicates we should or need to go to anyone else to pray TO. . . . Scripture very clearly tells us that we are to ask others to pray FOR us. Where is the equally clear verse that says we should pray to dead people? Give us the verse and you’ve made your case.

It’s wise to let scripture be our guide instead of us being our guide. The entire bible models prayer as going to God, no one else. . . . If God wanted you to pray to someone besides Him, He would have told us.

Where’s the one name I’ve asked you for, twice, of anyone from scripture that does what you’re saying is okay to do. Got that one yet?

Where’s that verse again where Paul prays to James or Stephen or Moses? Maybe you can help us out here?

Who do you imitate to pray to anyone besides God? Name them, from scripture.

Do as I’ve been asking like forever here. If Paul or anyone else suggested there are others you can pray to, just list them for us. We’ll wait. Its funny how certain catholics can be about thing nowhere found in the bible yet so uncertain of things all over the bible from cover to cover and won’t believe it. Its truly amazing to watch.

There are clear cut practices and exhortations regarding these practices and one of them is prayer. What’s the model we see? What directives did Jesus Himself or the apostles give us? Where did they say that there are any exceptions to whom we can pray to? You keep dodging my question which is directly related to your practice. WHO in the bible does the thing you are here advocating? Name someone or at least admit that nowhere in the bible do we see anyone at all praying to anyone other than God. You can admit at least that much huh?

So yes, you pray to the dead…i.e. those no longer on this earth. Something never one time endorsed by anyone in the bible.

It is clear we are not to communicate with the dead from scripture. It is clear when asked the question about prayer Jesus is clear as to who we are to pray to, He does not add you can also pray to Moses, Jacob etc. The apostles NEVER pray to the dead.

How about the fact no one ever, does what youre advocating in the bible? If location has nothing to do with prayer why isn’t even one person praying to anyone other than God, even those alive on the planet?

balshan: Nowhere does He or the apostles even hint at praying to the dead.

If praying to the dead was apostolic, please NAME one apostle who prayed to anyone other than the Lord?

That’s just in the first four pages out of twelve. But it’s enough. Now I will answer this biblically illiterate foolishness. Jesus taught the following, which was a true story, not a parable (parables never contain proper names):

Luke 16:19-31 (RSV) “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. [20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores, [21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. [22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; [23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom. [24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ [25] But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ [27] And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ [29] But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ [30]And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ [31] He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

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From this we learn many things:

Prayer petitions can be made to someone other than God: to dead saints; in this case, a famous figure and the father of faith and monotheism, Abraham. Three petitions are made (16:24, 27-28, 30). In Luke 16:27 in the King James Bible, it even renders what the rich man says as, “I pray thee.”

The rich man assumes that Abraham has it in his power to answer his petitions. Abraham doesn’t deny that he can answer; nor does this contradict the idea that Abraham would go to God to fulfill the request (per Rev 5:8), and if God so wills, deliver the reply to the rich man. From the rich man’s perspective, Abraham can grant to him what he desires.

The usual Protestant counter-reply to this is to say that Abraham refused the requests. But that no more proves their illegitimacy than God’s refusal to answer all of our prayers “proves” that we shouldn’t pray to Him. If prayer to him were indeed totally improper, Jesus could have never told the story in the first place. It would be a demonic lie, from Jesus’ lips! And if Protestants are right on this point, Abraham would have had to say that the rich man was asking amiss, and he would have rebuked him and told him to “pray to God only! You can’t pray to me!” But he didn’t. Therefore, it’s proper.

Nor does Abraham’s refusal prove that he lacks the power to fulfill the prayer (ultimately due to God’s power, of course). He said no in the first instances, because Dives’ punishment in the afterlife was already determined by God. He refused in the second instance because the “proposal” wasn’t going to work, anyway. He didn’t say, “I don’t have the power to send Lazarus and it’s blasphemous for you to think so.” He said, rather, that if he did send him, it wouldn’t make any difference as to the result Abraham hoped for (Lk 16:21: “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead”).

The second most common Protestant retort is to say that both men are dead, so it is an irrelevant example. This fails, because if in fact we ought to never pray to anyone but God, it remains a sin even after we are dead (like the rich man was). What’s wrong is wrong. If such a prayer is totally impermissible, period, then the rich man can’t make it. Whether he is dead or not is irrelevant. He’s still alive as a soul.

It’s Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God, Who taught us this sort of prayer, by providing the story that included it without condemnation and no hint of wrongdoing (in praying to Abraham) whatsoever. Jesus can’t contradict Himself. And He certainly can’t teach rank heresy in any illustrative story or parable that He tells (if someone insists this is a parable), or any of His sayings or sermons whatsoever. Yet here we are: Jesus is teaching things that Protestants tell us are damnable lies and idolatrous, blasphemous, occultic practices. One must choose! I choose Jesus over unbiblical man-made traditions, any day, any time.

Secondly, King Saul spoke to the dead prophet Samuel, who appeared to him after death:

1 Samuel 28:15-16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?”

Saul made a petition (“I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do”) and Samuel never said that Saul shouldn’t have done that. If the Protestant opposition to invocation of saints were true, Samuel should have said, “Why then do you ask me, since God has forbidden all invocation of departed persons. You have to ask God only.” Rather, Samuel noted the simple fact that the Lord had already turned against Saul and he proceeded to inform him that he would be killed the next day. The comeback is that this is a demon impersonating Saul or that it’s irrelevant because it occurred during a seance.

Both fail, since the Bible never indicates that this isn’t Samuel. It repeatedly refers to “Samuel” (15:12, 14-16, 20). And Samuel predicted that Saul would die in battle. This happened the next day; therefore it was a true prophecy, which a demon wouldn’t give (being a habitual liar). The principle / scenario here is the same as the rich man and Abraham. Samuel could properly be petitioned or, in effect, “prayed to” but he also could refuse the request, and he did so. As Samuel explained, he didn’t question the asking as wrong and sinful, but rather, refused because the request to save Saul was against God’s expressed will: which Samuel also knew about, as a departed saint.

Thirdly, Lot made two petitionary prayer requests to angels, and they were both granted:

Genesis 19:15, 18-21 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” . . . [18] And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords; [19] behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. [20] Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there — is it not a little one? — and my life will be saved!” [21] He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken.

This is sanctioned prayer to creatures and beings other than God (angels): what was repeatedly demanded — in a mocking, contemptuous spirit — in the thread. So what do the anti-Catholics there do with this? We have Jesus teaching through a story that featured Abraham: the historical figure. Abraham is petitioned in the story, and neither Abraham nor Jesus state that he shouldn’t have been. We have the prophet Samuel being petitioned and saying no, but not rebuking Saul for having petitioned him. So that’s two examples. Then we have a third example of Lot making two petitionary requests to angels, and both being granted in that instance.

There is a fourth evidence as well; not as strong as those above, but still interesting:

Matthew 27:46-49 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” [47] And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli’jah.” [48] And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. [49] But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Eli’jah will come to save him.” (cf. Mk 15:34-36)

The “bystanders” at Jesus’ crucifixion assumed that He could ask (pray to) the prophet Elijah to save Him from the agony of the cross (Mt 27:46-50). They’re presented as allies of Jesus (not enemies), since one of them gave Him a drink (Mt 27:48). Matthew 27:49 shows that this type of petition was commonly believed at the time. Moreover, Elijah had already appeared, along with Moses, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Mt 17:2-3; Mk 9:4; Lk 9:30-31). And some (perhaps many?) biblical commentators think that Elijah was one of the “two witnesses” of Revelation 11:3, who came back to earth.

It’s perfectly understandable that the “bystanders” at the crucifixion misunderstood Jesus on the cross as calling out to Elijah, for this purpose. It would have been very difficult for him to talk, and they may have been a ways away. Tradition holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. John, whom we know were at the cross, were some distance away (30-40 feet). I stood on the spot when I visited Jerusalem in 2014. These other people heard Jesus say (in actuality) “Eli” or “Eloi” and mistook it for “Elijah” (“Eliyahu” or “Eliya” in Hebrew).

We know that Jesus was in fact referring to God, not Elijah. But it doesn’t affect the present argument. What is relevant to note is the fact that they casually assumed that he could call on (in effect, “pray to”) a human being rather than God. These people probably hadn’t heard Jesus’ interpretation of John the Baptist as Messiah, so they thought that he (of whom it was known by then that he claimed to be the Messiah) was invoking / calling upon Elijah, as a fulfillment of the prophecy tying Elijah to the Messiah.

They were simply applying the Old Testament tradition of Elijah returning, reiterated several times in the New Testament. And in so doing they assumed the ability of human beings to invoke dead saints (as a tenet of existing Judaism). This is an argument for the invocation of the saints. It’s not the best one, or anywhere near compelling in and of itself (I want to make it clear how much I claim for it), but it is a valid and interesting argument and one (in my humble opinion) more than worthy of serious consideration. In any event, the other three above, are indisputable; they all illustrated human beings praying to someone other than God: either a dead person (Abraham, Samuel) or an angel, without a hint in any of the texts that it was wrong, let alone blasphemous, to do so.

There is also a fifth evidence of communication with the dead, by both Peter and Jesus, and something close to asking them to intercede. Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41. She was dead, and he was addressing her. There is no impenetrable wall between heaven and earth. This is not only praying to the dead, but for the dead, since the passage says that Peter “prayed” before addressing Tabitha first person. And he was praying for her to come back to life. Our Lord Jesus does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus (a dead man: John 11:41-42) and then speaks directly to a dead man (in effect, “praying” to him): “Lazarus, come out” (John 11:43).

So we have Jesus, Abraham, Samuel, Elijah, Peter, Moses, and angels connected with prayer to dead saints or angels or the closely related communication with the dead (also regarded as blasphemous, occultic, and always impermissible by most Protestants). Case closed. Next question?

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Photo credit: The Shade of Samuel Appears to Saul (1668), by Salvator Rosa (1615-1673) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: A thread on the anti-Catholic forum, CARM, repeatedly mocked intercession of the saints and angels, and asked for biblical proof. I’m happy to oblige them with five examples.

Saints & Purgatory & Penance

asking for intercession of angels

asking for intercession of saints

biblical prayer to creatures

communion of saints

Prayer

rich man & Abraham

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