Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Reply to Lutheran: Church “Higher” Than Scripture?

Reply to Lutheran: Church “Higher” Than Scripture?

Last updated on: November 8, 2023 at 3:55 pm by Dave Armstrong

0 Comments

Reply to Lutheran: Church “Higher” Than Scripture? 2023-11-08T15:55:44-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Seth Kasten runs the blog called The Confessing Lutheran. and is active on the Scholastic Lutherans YouTube channel. He wrote an article entitled, “A Brief Argument Against the Epistemological Primacy of the Church with Respect to Scripture” (10-3-22). This is my counter-reply. His words will be in blue.

*****

A common argument raised against Protestantism is that Scripture is somehow dependent on the Church, and thus, the Church must be causally prior to Scripture, so the authority of Scripture is derived from the authority of the Church, making the Church infallible, which is a violation of the principle of sola scriptura. This argument can take various forms.

Well, the official position of the Catholic Church (which I defend) is not of this nature at all. Three ecumenical councils made this very clear: Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II:

. . . keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline . . . (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament–seeing that one God is the author of both . . . as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. (Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures, Fourth Session of the Council of Trent, 1546; my italics)

The Catholic Church “receives” and “preserves” and “venerates” the Bible. It doesn’t claim authority over the Bible or the gospel. It’s two different concepts. One statement by one non-authoritative theologian doesn’t change this fact. Vatican I (1870) and Vatican II (1962-1965) elaborated upon this understanding and made it even more crystal clear that the Catholic Church doesn’t consider itself superior to or “over” the Bible:

These the Church holds to be sacred and canonical; not because, having been carefully composed by mere human industry, they were afterward approved by her authority; not because they contain revelation, with no admixture of error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author, and have been delivered as such to the Church herself. (Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, chapter II; emphasis added)

The divinely-revealed realities which are contained and presented in the text of sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For Holy Mother Church relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that they were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn. 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 3:15-16), they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation [Dei Verbum], Chapter III, 11; emphasis added)

Likewise, Lutheran Carl E. Braaten wrote eloquently about the relationship of the Bible and the Church: thoughts that Catholics can wholeheartedly accept:

Scripture principle exists only on account of the church and for the sake of the church…The Scripture principle of Reformation theology and its hermeneutical principles make sense only in and with the church . . . The authority of Scripture functions not in separation from the church but only in conjunction with the Spirit-generated fruits in the life of the church, its apostolic confession of faith and its life-giving sacraments of baptism, absolution and the Lord’s Supper. (“The Problem of Authority in the Church,” in: Carl E. Braaten and Robert W. Jenson, editors, The Catholicity of the Reformation, Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans, 1996, 61-62)

What was dependent on the Church was an authoritative list of the canon. But the canon is not the same as Scripture, anymore than the Table of Contents of a book is equal to the book. We can also say that the Church was chronologically (though not “causally”) prior to the New Testament, since it began during the life of Christ (His commissioning of Peter as its leader: Mt 16:18-19). Paul wasn’t even converted yet; nor were the Gospels yet written at that time. So the Church existed first, in relation to the New Testament. But it doesn’t follow that it is “over” the Bible or that the latter is “dependent” upon it.

Gerhard handles 5 variations on this argument in his Locus On Scripture. The most common variety of this argument is that the canon of the Bible (IE which books belong in the Bible) is only known to us through the Church, so without the Church confirming the books, we cannot know what books belong and do not belong.

In fact, that is what happened in history. Total agreement had not been reached — only general or broad agreement with lots of “anomalies” — short of such proclamations in the late 4th and early 5th centuries. The books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were still being significantly disputed late in the 4th century. Cyril of Jerusalem (d. 387), John Chrysostom (d. 407), and Gregory Nazianzen (d. c. 390) all denied the canonicity of the book of Revelation. The Epistle of Barnabas and Shepherd of Hermas were included in Codex Sinaiticus in the late 4th century. 1 and 2 Clement were included in the Codex Alexandrinus in the early 5th century. So there were plenty of disputes still taking place at the time that the Church decided to proclaim on the matter once and for all. And no doubt they would have continued. All of the above claims are found and verified in Protestant reference books, not Catholic ones.

The most common argument may be formally presented:

Premise (P)1.1) Scripture is later than the Church with respect to the acceptance of those books with regard to us. Before the Scriptures were published, the Church was already then in existence.

P1.2) The Church accepted the sacred books, approved them, and commended them to posterity.

Conclusion (C)1) The authority of Scripture depends on the Church.

Well, I don’t know who made this argument, but it’s a really bad and fallacious one, because it presupposes the equality of the canon and the Bible itself, which is a false premise.

Refutation (based on Gerhard):

This is a confusion of the material and form of scripture. Those who received the sacred books from Moses, the prophets, evangelists, and apostles and who commended those books to posterity with their testimony were indeed previously in the assembly of the Church. Also, up to that time, the Church, considered formally, was earlier than Scripture as regards the work of writing. But those witnesses of Scripture were converted and became sons of the Church through the Word that Scripture contains. Therefore they were not earlier than Scripture, considered materially, that is, than the Word that is set forth in Scripture. God’s Word is that “incorruptible seed” through which human beings are reborn and become sons of God (James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23). The prophets and the apostles preached the same Word previously and later consigned it to writing. Therefore as incongruent as it is to claim that fruit comes before the seed, so absurd is it also to claim that the Church absolutely and simply precedes Scripture, considered materially and with respect to the Word that it contains.

This is perfectly acceptable to Catholics and in accord with what we believe. The Catholic Church affirms that the Catholic “teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit . . .” (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, ch. II, 10).

The same document stated that “Easy access to Sacred Scripture should be provided for all the Christian faithful” (ch. 6, 22); “the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology” (ch. 6, 24); “all the clergy must hold fast to the Sacred Scriptures through diligent sacred reading and careful study . . . The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the ‘excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ’ (Phil. 3:8); “For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” (ch. 6, 25); “we may hope for a new stimulus for the life of the Spirit from a growing reverence for the word of God, which ‘lasts forever’ (Is. 40:8; see 1 Peter 1:23-25).” (ch. 6, 26); “the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life” (ch. 6, 21).

Lutheranism does not have a set canon for the Bible,
*
This precisely proves the point I just made. Since Lutheranism reserves the right to pick and choose which prior traditions in the Catholic Church it would accept and which it rejects, it has decided that the canon is still open today (!).

but that doesn’t mean there are no limits to allowable positions.

That may be, but they are obviously not final and definitive.

Our confessions cite various Biblical books as scriptural; our liturgies use certain books as scripture for the readings, propers, and ordinaries; and we have the famous Luther Bible of course. But because of this leeway, we are not dogmatically tied to proving a specific canon. This is important to this argument as Lutherans do not need to dogmatically prove any particular list of scriptures apart from at least the 58 books mentioned earlier, as we allow of variance on canonical acceptance (and no more than the maximum size mentioned). Lutheranism represents the group that requires the fewest commitments on this matter and also allows for the widest variance making this argument uniquely fitting.

If 58 books are accepted, then there is still dispute on seven New Testament books (that I noted above as being late in acceptance), and the book of Esther, according to Seth’s report as to Lutheranism and the canon. This is unacceptable. Christians must know which books are in the Bible and which are not, and not remain in doubt. But it’s part and parcel of the theological relativism and ecclesiological chaos that we see everywhere we turn in Protestantism.

This is why Church authority on the canon was necessary: because God doesn’t want millions of people following error or being uncertain as to very important matters (what is inspired revelation and what isn’t). Protestants are fine and dandy with this state of affairs. We Catholics are not. And the claim that we are arrogating to the Church authority over the Bible itself remains as false as it ever was.

*
*****
*

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-three books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information. Thanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***
*

Photo credit: Strasbourg Cathedral (Alsace, France). At 466 feet, it was the world’s tallest building from 1647 to 1874. It remains the highest extant structure built entirely in the Middle Ages. Photo by David Iliff (2-8-14) [Wikimedia Commons / CC-BY-SA 3.0 license]
*

***

Summary: I reply to a Lutheran, denying that the Catholic Church thinks it is “higher” than Scripture, with documentation from the councils of Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II.

Church "Higher" Than Scripture?

church authority

Rule of Faith

Previous Post

November 3, 2023

The Sacrament of Confirmation

Next Post

November 14, 2023 Tragic Bp. Strickland & Reaction from the Usual Suspects

Recent Comments

0 | Leave a Comment

"Special pleading, and not a serious response to my arguments . . ."

Dave Armstrong

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

""no man needs to teach us."Didn't you just teach us?"

Dave Armstrong

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

""Catholics say they are the only church that can lead people into heaven."In fact, we ..."

Dave Armstrong

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

"And lastly, I belong to no denomination and am free to serve God as He ..."

Mariah

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz