Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Do Petitions to Departed Saints Offend God?

Do Petitions to Departed Saints Offend God?

Last updated on: March 20, 2023 at 12:55 pm by Dave Armstrong

0 Comments

Do Petitions to Departed Saints Offend God? 2023-03-20T12:55:09-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Dan Delzell, the pastor of Redeemer Lutheran Church in Papillion, Nebraska, wrote the article, “Why offering petitions to departed saints offends God” (The Christian Post, 3-18-23). His words will be in blue.

If you are someone who regularly offers petitions to departed saints, try to imagine going a whole week only offering petitions to God. And then imagine yourself doing that for an entire month. You would be pleasantly surprised at just how refreshed your soul would be after 30 days of biblical, Christ-centered prayer.

Most of us who ask saints to pray for us, pray straight to God as well (probably the majority of the time), so this is a non sequitur. It assumes things that aren’t manifestly true. It’s the usual misrepresentation of Catholic practice, complete with the almost obligatory accompanying condescension, as if Catholics are unaware that we can pray directly to God.

Scripture instructs followers of Christ to offer petitions to the only One in Heaven who is worthy of such requests: “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God” (Philippians 4:6).

Sure, we can and do do that. But it doesn’t rule out prayer to dead saints; asking them to pray fir us or some cause. How do we know that? Well, our Lord Jesus taught it to us. He taught that a person in Hades (Sheol) could pray to Abraham (the rich man made both a petition and two intercessory requests):

Luke 16:24, 28, 30 (RSV) And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ . . . [27] And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ . . . [30] ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

The usual responses to this are three utterly failed, miserable attempts at rationalizing the text away:

Abraham said “no”;

it’s only a parable, and so is irrelevant.

the rich man was dead, too.

As for #1: the prayer doesn’t have to be answered for it to be a prayer or for it to be proper to pray to Abraham. Abraham refused the request, and gave the reason why. God refuses prayer requests too. But if it were fundamentally improper or wrong, Abraham would have had to correct the rich man, and say, “Pray only to God! Why are you praying to me?!” He never did (nor did he say it was impossible for him to fulfill — by whatever means — any request); therefore, Jesus taught that it was proper and permissible to pray to someone other than God; a dead man.

Abraham appears in the story to be able to fulfill prayer requests by his own powers. Why is the whole story about the rich man asking Abraham for requests, rather than going directly to God and asking Him? God is never even mentioned in the entire story! Abraham didn’t say that he couldn’t cause or help cause these things to happen (as a praying intermediary), but that it wouldn’t make any difference, because if they were to repent, thy would have already done so as a result of reading Moses and the prophets (Lk 16:31). In the case of the first request, Abraham noted that it was not permitted (implied: by God) to cross from one region of Hades to the other. It matters not if both men are dead; the rich man still can’t do what he did, according to Protestant categories of thought and theology.

This just isn’t how it’s supposed to be, from a Protestant perspective. All the emphases are wrong, and there are serious theological errors, committed by Jesus Himself (i.e., from their perspective). It creates huge problems for Protestant theology and biblical inspiration alike; even for Christology (if Jesus Himself is dead wrong about something so central to faith as prayer).

As to #2: It’s not a parable, as I and many argue (they don’t contain proper names and are usually identified as a “parable” in context), but even if it were, Jesus couldn’t tell an untruth or false bit of theology in it. He couldn’t tell a parable, for example, in which there were four Persons in the Trinity or sixteen gods who have existed for all eternity, or a God that is not eternal. That can’t happen because 1) He’s Jesus, Who is God and knows all things, and 2) the Bible in which these parables are found is itself without error. So this “argument” proves nothing whatsoever. If we can never pray to anyone but God (i.e., ask them to intercede to God for us), then Jesus simply couldn’t and wouldn’t teach it in His story, whether it is a parable or not. But He did, so there we have it. I have argued this probably twenty times through the years and it is no less self-evident now than it ever was.

As to #3: if indeed it is absolutely forbidden to ever pray to anyone besides God, then it’s irrelevant whether the rich man was dead or not. He prayed to someone besides God. And Abraham didn’t rebuke him, and Jesus was teaching the entire thing for the instruction of His hearers (and later readers).

In fact, offering petitions to departed saints is actually offensive to God.

It wasn’t offensive to Jesus, Who was God. He taught it!

In a CP op-ed 10 years ago titled, “Praying to the Departed Conjures Fallen Angels,” I wrote, “Prayers to the departed never reach St. Paul, or St. Augustine, or the mother of our Lord, or the brother of our Lord, or St. Francis of Assisi, or any other saint . . .

Really? Why is it, then, that the Bible teaches the following:

Revelation 5:8 . . . the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

The 24 elders are usually regarded as dead men by commentators. What are they doing with “the prayers of the saints” if all such supposedly only go straight to God and nowhere else? See also:

Revelation 8:4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Now angels appear to be involved with prayers, too. How can this be? And of course we also see dead men in heaven praying an “imprecatory prayer” (that enemies of God would be judged: prominent in the Psalms):

Revelation 6:9-10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; [10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”

Why would God be offended when one of his children offers petitions to departed saints? Because it is hugely disrespectful to the Lord to offer petitions to anyone in Heaven other than God himself.

That’s not taught in the Bible, either. Besides the rich man and Abraham, the rightness of which was confirmed by our Lord and Savior Jesus, Lot prayed to angels, and there is not the slightest hint in the text that this was wrong or improper:

Genesis 19:15, 18-22 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” . . . [18] And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords; [19] behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. [20] Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there — is it not a little one? — and my life will be saved!” [21] He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. [22] Make haste, escape there; for I can do nothing till you arrive there.”

The minute we turn to a departed saint to help grant our petition we veer away from biblical prayer.

Not according to Luke 16, which is straight from the mouth of Jesus, God the Son, in inspired, infallible Scripture (Luke 16).

You see, the Lord forbids his children from attempting to communicate with the departed.

Then how could Jesus teach that departed Abraham could be prayed to?

In Deuteronomy 18:9-13, the Lord gave his chosen people the following instructions: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices, the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.”

Yes; that’s occultic practice, which all Christians agree are wrong and forbidden. Asking a dead saint to pray is simply not the same as that. He commits a fundamental category mistake. See my paper, Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08].

Consulting departed saints by offering petitions to them is forbidden by the Lord.

It’s not, as shown above.

Likewise, when individuals offer petitions to departed saints, they are dabbling with dark power, . . .

Then Jesus must be guilty of participating in dark arts of sorcery, divination, and spiritism.

. . . demons oppress people who engage in occult practices . . .

It’s fascinating that, according to the false speculations of Rev. Delzell, Jesus Himself participated in such evil practices by recommending them; therefore, He must have been oppressed by, or in league with demons, in this scenario: precisely what His enemies accused Him of:

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “It is only by Be-el’zebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” (cf. 9:34; Lk 11:15)

John 10:20 Many of them said, “He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to him?”

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,200+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information. Thanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: The Bad Rich Man in Hell, by James Tissot (1836-1902) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: Garden variety arguments against petitions to departed saints are offered by Lutheran pastor Dan Delzell. I counter with the infallible teachings of Jesus in Luke 16.

Saints & Purgatory & Penance

Abraham & Lazarus

Asking the Righteous to Intercede

intercession of angels

intercession of saints

intercession of the saints

intermediate state

invocation of angels

invocation of saints

Petitions to Departed Saints

Prayer

sheol

Previous Post

March 18, 2023

Dan Barker's Easter Challenge (Chronology of Accounts)

Next Post

March 22, 2023 Bp. Butler's Refutation of Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 1

Recent Comments

0 | Leave a Comment

"Special pleading, and not a serious response to my arguments . . ."

Dave Armstrong

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

""no man needs to teach us."Didn't you just teach us?"

Dave Armstrong

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

""Catholics say they are the only church that can lead people into heaven."In fact, we ..."

Dave Armstrong

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

"And lastly, I belong to no denomination and am free to serve God as He ..."

Mariah

Is Venerating Men & Angels Worship? ..."

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz