Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Dialogue: Purgatory & 2 Maccabees 12:39-45

Dialogue: Purgatory & 2 Maccabees 12:39-45

Last updated on: November 8, 2020 at 1:01 pm by Dave Armstrong

Dialogue: Purgatory & 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 2020-11-08T13:01:10-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Luke Wayne has been a writer and researcher for the large Protestant online forum CARM since January of 2016. He is an elder at the Mission Church in South Jordan, Utah and holds a Masters of Arts in Theological Studies from Midwestern Baptist College and a Masters in Divinity from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

I’m responding to his article, “Purgatory and 2 Maccabees 12:39-45” (1-30-17). Luke’s words will be in blue.

*****

[P]urgatory teaches that people who die while in God’s grace but who are not sufficiently purified of their sinfulness to enter God’s presence must undergo a time of purification through temporary suffering in the torments of purgatory. . . . Such a doctrine would seem to imply that Christ’s sufferings were insufficient to sanctify the believer, . . .

I don’t see how it nullifies the sufficiency of Christ’s work for us, seeing that we all have to be sinless to enter heaven:

Revelation 21:27 (RSV) But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The Bible is full of the motif of being purified, purged, and washed clean (the central notion of purgatory). I have found 50 such passages. Protestants also agree with Bible passages having to do with the judgment seat of Christ, which is for the believers or the saved / elect only, and the idea of the works of those who are saved being tested by fire:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — [13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

Romans 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

Ephesians 6:8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.

So it seems to me that Catholics and Protestants can fully, wholeheartedly agree that one will be literally without sin (not just declared to be) when they enter heaven. We only differ as to whether a process takes place to accomplish this, or whether it is more or less instantaneous. In any event, neither Catholic nor Protestant eschatological doctrine in this regard takes away from Christ’s redemptive, salvific, justifying work on the cross on our behalf, in the slightest.

Unfortunately for the Roman Catholic apologist, however, the passage in 2 Maccabees doesn’t say anything about purgatory, nor does it in any way imply the Roman Catholic dogma.

Luke’s (rather clever but fallacious) argument is that this passage (even if it is granted to be part of Scripture: which the Protestant doesn’t grant) doesn’t even affirm the Catholic notion of purgatory in the first place. He notes that the passage implies that each dead soldier was guilty of idolatry:

2 Maccabees 12:39-42a On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. [40] Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. [41] So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; [42] and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. . . .

Luke develops his argument based on the ostensible serious sins committed in this instance, and alleged Catholic internal inconsistencies:

Purgatory is only for those who have died in God’s grace. If someone dies while guilty of a mortal sin for which they have made no absolution, they die outside of God’s grace and under His wrath. . . . They will be justly punished in hell.

It’s what he then concludes, that doesn’t necessarily logically follow, according to the Bible, logic, and Catholic teaching:

Roman Catholic teaching regards willful idolatry committed in full knowledge of God’s moral law to be a mortal sin.

“Full knowledge” is the key phrase here. Whether they were condemned to hell or not would depend on whether all these soldiers had “full knowledge” of their evil.

The passage is clear that these were not ignorant pagans. They were Jews who knew that what they were doing was forbidden by God’s law. These men died in unrepentant, willful idolatry and active devotion to false gods.

We can’t know that for sure. If we know anything from the long, sordid history of the ancient Jews, as recorded in the Old Testament, we know that they often descended into periods of disobedience to God’s law, and the Mosaic law. Yes, it was often willful disobedience. But must it be thought to be so in every single case? No; we simply can’t know that. And the Old Testament frequently refers to lack of “knowledge”:

Hosea 4:1, 6 . . . There is no faithfulness or kindness, and no knowledge of God in the land; . . . [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; . . .

Psalm 82:5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; . . .

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people go into exile for want of knowledge; . . .

Isaiah 45:20 . . . They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, . . .

Isaiah 56:10 His watchmen are blind, they are all without knowledge; . . .

Jeremiah 10:14 Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them. (cf. 14:18; 51:17)

In the New Testament also, it’s plainly taught that we are judged (and are “culpable”) based on the extent of our knowledge: which is part and parcel and directly related to the Catholic distinction between mortal and venial sin:

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. [48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” . . .

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.”

John 19:11 . . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.

1 Timothy 1:13 . . . I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.

All of this would apply to these dead men who had idols on their bodies. Some may have been ignorant of what the Law taught. This was a massive problem throughout Jewish history. Some may not have accepted idolatry with a full consent of their will (which is a Catholic requirement for mortal sin to be subjectively present, as well as objectively. Failing those things, they may not have been condemned to hell at all, and would be exactly the sort of person who is saved “only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15), and is thus fit to be prayed for after death, according to the Catholic biblical rationale for such prayers. But they cannot all be said to be damned, which would preclude prayers; and this is Luke’s argument, which is now shown, I believe, to be fallacious and unbiblical.

It’s completely in accord with Jewish practice, that these men should have been prayed for, just as Moses prayed for his people and even made atonement for them, even in cases of very serious sin and rebellion indeed, including the sin of idolatry (Ex 32:30-32; Num 14:19-23; 16:46-48; 25:1-13). After all, St. Paul prayed for a dead man, too:

2 Timothy 1:16-18 “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19)

And the Bible refers to what I believe is fasting and other penitential works on behalf of the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:29 “Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?”

Luke contends that the dead soldiers were all damned because of this passage:

2 Maccabees 12:42b . . . And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

He neglects to differentiate between judgment and the individual salvific fate of each person. For example, when King Saul was judged by God for his sins, by losing a battle and being brought to a place where he decided to kill himself, his son Jonathan, who was righteous and a soulmate of David, was also killed. He was being loyal to his father. But the extent of sin of these two men was vastly different. We know that when entire countries are judged, it doesn’t follow that there are no righteous people in them. Thus, the prophet Jeremiah was also part of the judgment on Israel, when Babylon conquered it in the 6th century BC: even though he had warned them for some 60 years of the impending invasion.

Therefore, in this instance, the Bible is making a general statement: idolatry is bad and will bring judgment. It doesn’t follow that each individual was culpable and fully guilty, subjectively, for the sin of idolatry in its fullest, willful sense. This being the case, they can be prayed for. And God can apply prayers backwards in time, because He is outside of time (something that many Protestants agree with). Therefore, the prayers for these men cold be conceptualized as being applied to then before they died: that each would repent of idolatry. In this case, it would not be “prayer for the dead” per se, but prayer for dead men, before they died.

It still remains for Luke to explain how the survivors were “praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out.” They must have believed that forgiveness was in some sense still available to these men, and it could have been on the basis which I have explained: either differential culpability or “retroactive prayer.” For the Old Testament Jews believed that a condemned, damned man was beyond prayer, just as Christians do:

Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

Psalm 89:48 . . . Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? (cf. 49:14; Prov 30:16)

Isaiah 14:11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering.

Isaiah 38:18 . . . I am consigned to the gates of Sheol for the rest of my years.

The rest of the passage under consideration is fully in accord with the above understanding, but doesn’t make sense under Luke’s assumption that all the men were damned:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. [44] For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. [note the similarity with 1 Corinthians 15:29 above]

Luke contends that the men do this because “of the expectation of a future resurrection. It is not because these men were presently confined to the sufferings of purgatory and hoping for release.” He’s right about the first clause (it means they weren’t regarded as damned), but wrong about the second. They would not have understood purgatory, as the afterlife at that time was only dimly understood or defined. But the hopes of a resurrection, leading to prayer on their behalf, is consistent with the notion of a middle state: not damnation nor ultimate salvation. And this is consistent with purgatory and also the scenario of a divided Hades / Sheol which was taught by Jesus in Luke 16. It’s not consistent with all the men being damned, because then it would make no sense to pray or atone for them at all.

Judas wanted these men to share in the reward of the righteous on the day of resurrection. He was not considering the present reality of their death and any suffering their souls might currently be enduring. His focus was the future hope of their physical life.

Exactly! In precisely the same manner and spirit, Catholics pray for immaterial souls to be delivered to purgatory, and to heaven, where they will receive resurrected, glorified bodies.

It reports the act of a general who loved his men and believed in the resurrection of the dead, and so he offered atoning sacrifices at the temple in hopes that God might accept them, forgive these men, and grant them eternal life and reward instead of a future of suffering.

Indeed; just as Catholics pray for the dead, like Paul did (2 Tim 1:16-18), and do penance for them (1 Cor 15:29). It’s simply the continuation of praying for each other on earth.

His hope was not to shorten their stay in some form of purgatory but rather to mediate their release from sin, death, and hell.

I see no difference between “that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Mac 12:45) and Catholics praying for the deliverance of a soul from purgatory. In both instances the time of suffering is shortened. No essential difference whatsoever . . .

***

Photo credit: [public domain / PxFuel]

***

Jews & Judaism & Old Testament

Saints & Purgatory & Penance

Previous Post

November 7, 2020

No Election Fraud At All? Read On

Next Post

November 10, 2020 Seidensticker Folly #62: Bible & Personhood of Fetuses

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz