Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Defining “Church”: “Exchange” w Anti-Catholic Zealot

Defining “Church”: “Exchange” w Anti-Catholic Zealot

Last updated on: March 9, 2020 at 11:11 am by Dave Armstrong

Defining “Church”: “Exchange” w Anti-Catholic Zealot 2020-03-09T11:11:39-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

An anti-Catholic Protestant who goes by the delightfully charitable nickname, pearlsb4swine, roused himself out of inactivity on Disqus (over a year) to comment underneath my article, Blessed Virgin Mary Will Soon be Promoted to Godhood? (vs. Douglas Wilson). He made nine comments over the span of three days. Knowing the usual tactics of anti-Catholics (and trollers in general) — from my 24 years of online apologetics — , I made a few replies and challenged him:

Your choice is this: either deal directly with my explicit, in-depth biblical arguments about the meaning of “church” and baptism in Scripture, and my question about Athanasius and Augustine [i.e., are they Christians?], or you will be banned as an anti-Catholic troll and I will delete all of your comments.

I want to see an anti-Catholic actually grapple with Catholic bible-based arguments for a change.

You wanna talk Bible? I have given you plenty of it. Now please get to work and back up what you say under scrutiny. If your view is so truthful and ours supposedly so unbiblical and false, it should be short work for you. You should welcome the challenge, and be ecstatic about the golden opportunity to set us ignorant papists straight — from the Bible — , right on one of our own web pages.

That was written about 30 hours ago, as of this writing. Oddly enough, we haven’t heard a peep from pearlsb4swine since. Sound familiar? I’ll give him to the end of this day to respond (another 13 hours). If he hasn’t by then, I will delete all his comments from that thread (but retain them here). If he does respond, I will — rest assured — add his words to this paper, and refute them, too. His words will be in blue below (I’ve made a few spelling corrections, and have retained his lack of capital letters).

*****

One must believe the gospel to be a born again Christian. Religion and labels are the problem, denominations and human tradition are man’s perversion of Christianity called “the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming” by the Bible. every individual should join themselves to the savior not to a religious system or event. God looks at the heart. There are many christians and church goers from all denominations that are not born of God. going to church doesn’t save you only repentance and faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ can save anyone. Jesus himself said “you must be born again” The Core issue is what is the gospel and who is a part of the Body of Christ, not which label or religious ritual defines christianity. “you are my disciples if you obey my teaching ” Jesus said “they will know we are christians by our love for one another. anyone identifying themselves by anything other than the Jesus revealed in the gospels and the rest of the Bible is not a christian. you must have the Christ and the real Christ.

Christian unity comes only through the holy spirit inside a believer. all other externals cannot bring unity. those who are his have a new nature at work in them reconciling them to the light. “if we live in the light as HE is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins.” baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. read the bible for yourselves as you surrender to the savior and then test everything including your church and its leaders. God gives us all the same bible to test truth and the same Holy Spirit to discern family by that same spirit. the devil works feverishly to counterfeit christianity and to create many other counterfeit Christs through false religions.

What does this have to do with the topic of my article?

any debate about who is a true christian starts with being in Christ and applying biblical definitions to terms. it has everything to do with your article because your article focus on labels and denominations rather than on the gospel and the holy spirit.

***

we are individuals “saved” and a body together. “the church” how it has become commonly used in culture is a place you go or a claim of authority and succession, but that is never how its defined in the new testament. The church are real christians not the visible church (institution) all though many genuine believers attend “church”. i am not against church just against wrong definitions which distort christian life and leaders use to control people and cultures. The point of this article opens up with a false dichotomy with “labels” and definitions that aren’t biblical.

the issue of whether “Catholics” are “christians” or not. neither label makes one IN CHRIST only repentance of sins and faith in Jesus Christ as total payment for the debt we deserve makes someone a part of the body of Christ. wearing a label or entering a building called “church” or joining any denomination doesn’t make one a Christ follower. my point is that opinions matter not we must have biblically defined “Church” . . . the word is “gathering” “assembly” of believers.

We are the church by being IN JESUS and the Holy Spirit makes us born again when we believe and receive the gospel of Jesus by faith.

“The Church” defined biblically are individuals who are in Christ, not an institution, organization or people wearing that name. you can be inside the building or in the pulpit and not filled with the Holy Spirit. The gospel is preached by individuals not churches.

This is exactly the opposite of how St. Paul uses the term in his epistles, following Jesus’ parable of the wheat and the tares:

The Apostle Paul on the Galatians as Miserable Sinners
*

Galatians 1:6 (RSV) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel”
*
Galatians 3:1-3 “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? [2] Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? [3] Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?”

Galatians 4:9b “. . . how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?”

Galatians 5:4 “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”

Galatians 5:7 “You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?”

The Apostle Paul on the Galatians as Fellow Christians

Galatians 1:2 “To the churches of Galatia”

Galatians 1:11 “For I would have you know, brethren, . . .”

Galatians 3:25-27 “But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; [26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. [27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Galatians 4:4-7 “But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, [5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. [6] And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” [7] So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir.”

Galatians 4:9a “but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, . . .”

Galatians 4:12 “Brethren, I beseech you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong”

Galatians 4:19 “My little children, . . .”

Galatians 4:28 “Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.”

Galatians 4:31 “So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.”

Galatians 5:1 “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”

Galatians 6:1 “Brethren, . . .”

Galatians 6:18 “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.”

There are similar dynamics with the Corinthian church as well. Our Lord Jesus also calls all seven assemblies of Revelation “churches” (2:1; 2:8; 2:12; 2:18; 3:1; 3:7; 3:14; along with the repetition of “what the Spirit says to the churches” in 2:7 and similar passages), yet excoriates several of them in no uncertain terms (2:4-5; 2:14-16; 2:20-22; 3:1-3; 3:15-18).

Jesus Himself rebukes six of the seven churches of Asia He addresses. Most scholars think that the Book of Revelation was written no later than 100 A.D. Yet look at all the serious problems we already observe in these apostolic churches, before the last Apostle (John) died:

a) The church at Ephesus “abandoned the love [they] had at first” (Rev 2:4), and are urged (corporately) to repent, lest their “lampstand” be removed (2:5).

b) Pergamum was accused of idolatry and fornication: “the teaching of Balaam” (2:14) and for allowing some of their ranks to adopt the Nicolaitan heresy (2:15). “Nicolas” is the Greek equivalent of “Balaam.”

c) Thyatira is also accused of idolatry and fornication (2:20-23).

d) Sardis is rebuked as spiritually dead (3:1-3), but Jesus says “yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.” (3:4). Even so, Jesus calls this group “the church in Sardis” (3:1), just as He refers to all seven as “churches.”

e) Philadelphia had “but little power” (3:8).

f) Laodicea was “lukewarm, . . . wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked” (3:15-18).

***

Are Sinful Church Leaders a Disproof of Catholicism? [1998]

How Can the One True Church Have Sinners in it? [2002]

Sinners in the Church & God’s Mercy (vs. Calvin #8) [5-15-09]

Do Catholic Sexual Scandals Disprove Catholic Truth Claims? [11-10-11]

St. Paul on Sinners in the Church (Notorious Galatians) [12-20-11]

*
Catholic Sinners & Corruption: the “Jesus, Paul, & Revelation” Retort [5-25-17]

Sinning Christians: Catholic vs. Protestant Approaches [8-10-17]
*

Christian Sinners & “Puritanical” Fanaticism (Reply to Calvin #5) [12-17-18]
*

***

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist: If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and two children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet. I provide over 2700 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers (and “likes” and links and shares). Thanks!

See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: [email protected]). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through Zelle. Again, just send to my e-mail address. May God abundantly bless you.

***

Photo credit: BilliTheCat (12-26-18) [Pixabay / Pixabay License]

***

definition of Christian

definition of church

ecclesia

ecclesiology

Previous Post

March 6, 2020

John Bugay a Bitter Anti-Catholic? Who Woulda Thunk It?!

Next Post

March 9, 2020 Sinners in the Church (by St. John Henry Newman)

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz