Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Discussion: Ecumenism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries

Discussion: Ecumenism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries

Last updated on: January 30, 2020 at 1:04 pm by Dave Armstrong

Discussion: Ecumenism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries 2020-01-30T13:04:37-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

From a Facebook discussion on my page: 4 January 2014. Words of Dr. Edwin Woodruff Tait (Anglican Church historian then; possibly Catholic by now) will be in blue, Matthew’s in green, Toni Aceto’s in purple, Charles Jones’ in brown, and Martin Bubba Wheaton’s in orange. The original discussion occurred underneath a link to the article, “Is Ecumenism a Heresy?” (Fr. Brian Harrison, Catholic Answers Magazine, 1-1-09).

*****

Matthew writes stuff like this on his Facebook page:

I don’t think there is such a thing as a good Novus parish out there, honestly, particularly when compared with a traditional parish. The new rite is so unbelievably deficient in nearly every way, I don’t understand how anyone who has the least sensus Catholicus could ever go to the Novus Ordo.” (12-31-13)

There is no reason for me to keep up with what the Pope says and does. For a while I actively avoided it, just as I did with JPII. There is no benefit for me to keep up with him. He is not going to say anything theologically (dogmatically or morally) that I am unaware of or that will improve my understanding. Or, he may, but the 99% of stuff I have to get through to find the nugget is not worth it (the idea behind simply not watching TV, even if there may be some good things on TV). I have my parish priests for the needs of my soul, so I have no need to keep up with what the Pope is doing — it is a net-negative endeavor.. . . if we had a Pope who was dedicated to restoring Tradition and the faith to the Church and world, it may be different. Today, practically — and even philosophically, ask the Bishop of Rome himself — it makes no sense to keep up with the latest ‘news’ from the Pope. (1-3-14)

Matthew, you don’t explain what you mean by “false ecumenism” (I’m assuming that Dave is going on more than just that post in his characterization of your position, but that’s between the two of you). However, if by “false ecumenism” you mean the kind described in the article as condemned by Pius XI, you are simply wrong as a matter of fact. I have spent some time in ecumenical circles–one of the professors at Duke Divinity School, where I got my Ph.D. was Geoffrey Wainwright, a major player in ecumenical dialogue and one of the authors of the text “Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry,” which is one of the most important theological documents to come out of the work of the World Council of Churches. Wainwright simply didn’t fit the stereotype of an ecumenist I had grown up with. He was a good friend of then-Cardinal Ratzinger and very akin to him in theology in many ways. He was deeply committed to creedal orthodoxy and conservative on matters of sexual morality. He was strongly opposed to the kind of “lowest common denominator” ecumenism that many conservatives associate with the ecumenical movement.

Leslie Newbigin, perhaps the most eminent Protestant ecumenist of the 20th century, was a friend and mentor of Wainwright and of a very similar theological bent. These were not people who believed in watering down creedal orthodoxy or who disbelieved in the supernatural. And if anything, ecumenism today has moved away from the liberal model, which has proven itself bankrupt (it can only unite people who already don’t believe much, and on a practical level–not that that matters too much in itself–it clearly doesn’t deliver the kind of cultural vitality and numerical growth that it promised). In other words, I think that conservatives caricature ecumenism, at least if ecumenism is seen as a theological movement. If, on the other hand, it’s seen as a bureaucratic movement, there’s much truth in the caricature. And I think it’s become increasingly apparent that the bureaucratic “merger” model of ecumenism is bankrupt.

[reply to Matthew] More Catholic than the pope and the Church . . . That’s more than enough to justify being blocked from my page. On this page we think and talk like Catholics, and I aim to keep it that way. Matthew’s comment threw up a red flag, and sure enough, when I checked out his page, we see the same old radical Catholic reactionary rotgut. Bye, Matthew. I pray that you will see the folly of your ways in due course.

Matthew exhibits several absolutely classic, defining traits of the radical Catholic reactionary:

antipathy to the Novus Ordo [ordinary form / Pauline / “New”] Mass,

Dissing recent popes: Francis, JPII, while Benedict XVI is seen as an ally,

antipathy to ecumenism (which almost always is fueled by hostility to VCII, which highlighted ecumenism).

Legitimate mainstream “traditionalists” don’t do any of these. They may attack rampant abuses in Novus Ordo Masses (as I do myself). They may wonder about some things the pope says, but would never put it in these crass, “juvenile rebellious” terms, and they have questions about what legitimate ecumenism is, but they agree that there is such a thing.

Going to have to agree with Dave on this one – Matthew is a very nice guy in person but he does seem to have issues with pride, and putting the style of the Mass above the substance of the Mass. (Which is blasphemy of the VERY highest order, in that Jesus Himself is the substance of the Mass no matter how it is said.)

Even if expressed pridefully and inartfully, the substance of Matthew’s point about many novus ordo parishes is valid. But, traditional parishes have their issues too. Earlier this year I escaped from a traditional parish, glory to God. The Pharisaical attitude that runs rampant in those places is very disquieting, and the Pope would be justified in coming down hard on it in some way.

Given the choice between attending a rock music Mass, terrible in form, where the people are focusing on the Blessed Sacrament, or a traditional Mass which is perfect in form but where the people are all wagging their fingers and tongues at one another and looking down their noses at one another instead of worshipping the Lord, and the Priest is preaching nothing but judgment and damnation, one would almost be bound under pain of sin to attend the former. (Fortunately I am not forced to such a choice because after a long search I have found a novus ordo parish that says Mass very well.)

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone. “

There are extremes on both sides, which are equally wrong. “How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!” On the one side, there are those luvvy-duvvy, happy-slappy places where it’s all flowers and smiles and you’re ok, I’m ok, everyone is ok, God loves us all, no real truth is preached, and we’ll all be in heaven in the sweet by and by. I escaped from one of those too, glory to God again. But on the other side there are those who think they know better than the Pope, that they, not the Pope, get to decide how to interpret the magisterium and who talk about the “sensus Catholicus” or other such ridiculous nonsense that they’ve made up to justify themselves, and whose interpretations just so happen to match up with their personal preferences. (What a coincidence.) And there are parishes where as I said earlier nothing but judgment and damnation are preached, Priests literally tell you that God does not forgive you, and there is no love and mercy at all there, and people are more attentive to what you are wearing than to the Lord. (With the encouragement of the Priest, no less.)

It is up to us to avoid both places. The gate is narrow.

Dave, how is Benedict seen as an ally given this speech he gave at Cologne [World Youth Day] (which I’m afraid I have sometimes used, illegitimately and tendentiously, to justify not becoming Catholic): [link]

I know this is a rhetorical question–we both agree that the anti-ecumenists are reading what they want to into Benedict, just as liberals are doing with Francis. . . .

You answered your own question there, Edwin! Pope Benedict was and is the darling of both “traditionalists” and radical Catholic reactionaries because of his high interest in the liturgy. But interests and emphases do not totally define a person or pope, and he was in total harmony with the popes before and after him, including, very much so, ecumenical efforts.

Trying to make out that he was fundamentally different is as much of a dead end as the current mad campaign to define Pope Francis as a modernist. People need to refine their thinking if they are foolish enough to buy either of those lines. They are stuck in pharisaism (hyper-legalism and not being able to see the forest for the trees, or to see what is important).

David: is his thought, in your opinion, just the recycling of old heretical thought? Haven’t we all seen this before? My point in this comment is that I do believe that we have seen heretics disagreeing with the Church for centuries: these groups never completely die, they just transform and evolve with the times.

Protestants technically are not heretics. Catholics who reject Church teaching willfully and therefore reject their baptismal promises are indeed heretics CCC2089. “”Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” I’m trying to read and understand more about heresy and how heretical thinking has affected the Church. I do think that this fundamentalist thinking that you are commenting on is a result of old heresies resurfacing (‘Old Catholicism”, “Feenyites”, and an improper response to the “Crisis in the Church” which has resulted from an influx of Modernism).

Toni,

It is radical Catholic reactionary thought, which comes from a stunted mentality that I just commented on in my last comment. I think it is a combination of legalistic pharisaism, hyper-rationalism, and lack of faith. Historically it goes back to the rigorist / separatist / schismatic sects like the Donatists, Montanists, Novatians, etc. That’s the background. But the thinking eventually takes on many characteristics of modernism: adoption of the principle of private judgment over against Catholic authority, cafeteria Catholicism, rampant dissent on arbitrary grounds . . . It’s not heretical as much as it is “quasi-schismatic.”

Thus, many who think like this today may quite possibly be on the road to literal schism with the SSPX or sedevacantism. Those of us who have observed these trends (I have for over 23 years), have seen it happen again and again.

Toni, you’re right of course that “material heresy” doesn’t necessarily involve a person in the moral guilt of “formal heresy,” but Protestantism is, by Catholic standards, materially heretical. Dave’s “serious heresy/partial heresy” distinction is not entirely felicitous, in my view (isn’t all heresy serious, and isn’t all heresy partial?), but clearly some such distinction needs to be made. One of the appeals of ecumenical “mere Christianity” Protestantism for me has been precisely that this distinction can be made more easily. What Dave calls “serious heresy” is what ecumenical Protestants would call heresy. What Dave calls “partial heresy” is what we (if I should still say “we,” which probably I shouldn’t) would call theological error that doesn’t amount to heresy. Some would say heresy/heterodoxy, and perhaps that’s the best terminology, even though in a sense they mean the same thing.

The initial protestants who were Catholic were heretics. Modern day protestants by definition are not heretics.

Subjectively, no, but objectively, they hold to many heretical tenets. Edwin correctly observes: “Protestantism is, by Catholic standards, heretical.” I’m agreeing more with him in this discussion (a traditional Anglican) than I am with Matthew: a radical Catholic reactionary. And that’s because Edwin thinks ecumenically, as I do, whereas Matthew thinks in quasi-schismatic and rigorist and pharisaical terms.

So, e..g, Trent anathematizes those who deny that baptism is necessary for salvation (Canon V), and who deny that it regenerates, etc. Those who believe such things are heretics insofar as they are in error. This would include many Protestants who think baptism is merely symbolic (Baptists, most pentecostals, a good number of evangelicals, Anabaptists, Mennonites, etc.).

So they are “partial heretics” in that respect and many others, from a Catholic perspective, yet still Christians because they have been validly baptized, despite their wrong interpretation of that.

Isn’t being ecumenical dialoguing with others? Keeping the channels open. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you AGREE, it means that you keep the doors open for respectful dialogue. In Pope Francis’ words in July: “When leaders in various fields ask me for advice, my response is always the same: dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. It is the only way for individuals, families, and societies to grow, the only way for the life of peoples to progress, along with the culture of encounter, a culture in which all have something good to give and all can receive something good in return. Others always have something to give me, if we know how to approach them in a spirit of openness and without prejudice.”

Exactly right, Toni. It’s seeking first, to correctly understand those of other Christian groups. We discover that we have much more in common than we had supposed. And we build on that and rejoice in the real unity that we have.

I would actually define “ecumenical” as the claim that the agreements among validly baptized Christians who believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation are more fundamental than the disagreements. That’s what I take Dave to be expressing by his serious/partial distinction. All other Christian doctrines are in some sense developments from the Incarnation and dependent on it. People who deny the Real Presence, or refuse to venerate Mary, or reject icons, or reject apostolic succession or the Papacy, have an inadequate understanding of the implications of the Incarnation. But when you run up against people who deny the Incarnation itself, you don’t have that common ground. And I think that’s where Toni’s definition comes in. We should have dialogue with everyone. But ecumenism, in the Christian sense, refers specifically to dialogue that’s founded on our common faith in Christ as God Incarnate.

In the common usage of the Church, “Nicene Creed” means “Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.” This is of course technically inaccurate, but unless there’s a sect of “Nicene primitivists” running around that I haven’t heard of who reject the innovations of Constantinople, I can’t see that it matters theologically.

The Nicene Creed is a good starting point, Dave, and one standard I have always utilized to determine who is a Christian and who is not: though the baptismal regeneration clause does not fit many Protestants. That’s the biggest “sticking point” there.

I agree pretty much with Edwin’s comment (second one back). That’s not to deny that there are extremely important things that Protestantism omits, and, e.g., its rule of faith has very serious consequences, including a denial of ultimately binding Church authority. But by and large, I agree.

My concerns with Protestantism are not so much what it teaches, but what it fails to teach and grasp: what it omits. Those elements are what made me become a Catholic, because my already vigorous evangelical faith didn’t include them and I wanted all of apostolic Christianity: once I started to grasp what it was in its full colors.

Martin Bubba Wheaton wrote (then apparently withdrew the comment):

As a Dominican scholar once told us, ‘If anyone can demonstrate to me how we can go to calling someone a heretic to a ‘brother in Christ’ (without the heretic changing one iota) can be said to be reasonably in keeping with Church teaching, I will give them $10!’

That’s easy as pie. There are serious heretics (like Arius, who denied the Trinity) and partial heretics (like Protestants). “Heresy” literally means “pick and choose.” But the latter can be and are called “brothers in Christ” by the Church, because of their trinitarian baptism, which incorporates them into the Church (or does that have to be defended, too?). They are Christians; in Christ.

Nor is this notion a novel thing. It goes back to the Augustine-Donatist controversy, where Augustine and the Church decided against rebaptism, and Aquinas, and Trent. Canon IV on Baptism, Council of Trent, recognizes as “true baptism” that “which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” That ain’t modernist garbage (that many folks falsely superimpose onto the orthodox Vatican II); it’s Trent!

Thus, “heretics” (in some respects) are still brothers in Christ due (primarily, but not exclusively) to their valid baptisms, which is the entrance rite into the Church and Body of Christ. Hence, “separated brethren”: which was also in use at least as far back as Leo XIII (iirc), and wasn’t new, either.

Martin can write to me privately for contact information, for me to receive my $10. Its the easiest money I ever made . . .

***

For many more articles on ecumenism, see my web page on that topic.

***

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist: If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet. I provide over 2600 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers (and “likes” and links and shares). Thanks!

See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: [email protected]). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through Zelle. Again, just send to my e-mail address. May God abundantly bless you.

***

Photo credit: geralt (10-2-17) [Pixabay / Pixabay License]

***

Ecumenism & Christian Unity

Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries

anti-Lutheranism

anti-Protestant

anti-Protestantism

brothers & sisters in Christ

Catholics & Protestants

interreligious discussion

lutheranism

Protestant Revolt

Protestantism

Radical Catholic Reactionaries

Reformation

schism

separated brethren

Trent & Protestant baptism

truth

valid baptism

Previous Post

January 30, 2020

Socratic Dialogue / Debate vs. Anti-Lutheran Catholic

Next Post

January 31, 2020 Dialogue: the Relation of Christian Apologetics & Testimony

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz