Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Dialogue on the Woman of Revelation 12 (Mary?)

Dialogue on the Woman of Revelation 12 (Mary?)

Last updated on: March 29, 2017 at 4:37 pm by Dave Armstrong

Dialogue on the Woman of Revelation 12 (Mary?) 2017-03-29T16:37:51-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Madonna in Glory (c. 1670), by Carlo Dolci (1616-1686) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

(8-16-11)

This discussion was condensed from a combox on a friend’s Facebook page. Guy’s words will be in green; Brian’s in blue.

* * * * *

Guy Duininck I also don’t accept that the ark of the covenant is a type of Mary…….that is all far too presumptious [sic] for this careful student of Scripture. I also don’t accept that she is the woman in Revelation. . . . This [is] all speculation which then becomes a foundation for further argument.

That’s fascinating. Her son is described as “one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,” (12:5, RSV); so you deny that this is Jesus? If it isn’t Jesus, who is it? And if it is, then how can you deny that His mother is Mary? Catholics believe that there is a double application here to the Church and to Mary (a common phenomenon in Scripture). But to deny the application to Mary altogether runs into the exegetical absurdities that I note.

Brian Sleeman Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary:

12:1-6 The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. The moon was under her feet; she was superior to the reflected and feebler light of the revelation made by Moses. Having on her head a crown of twelve stars; the doctrine of the gospel, preached by the twelve apostles, is a crown of glory to all true believers. As in pain to bring forth a holy family; desirous that the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion. A dragon is a known emblem of Satan, and his chief agents, or those who govern for him on earth, at that time the pagan empire of Rome, the city built upon seven hills. As having ten horns, divided into ten kingdoms. Having seven crowns, representing seven forms of government. As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth; persecuting and seducing the ministers and teachers. As watchful to crush the Christian religion; but in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.

But then I’ve seen interpretations that the passage refers to a succession of Christian Emperors.

Seems that deciphering Prophecy can be a difficult task – I wouldn’t be ready to my money on any of the interpretations yet.

Hi Brian. Since Guy hasn’t answered my question about the woman in Revelation and Christ, maybe you will. It’s right above your last comment. Please do inform all of us who this “Son” is, and who his mother is. I’ll even help you with cross-reference clues:

Psalm 2:7-9 (RSV) I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you.[8] Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. [9] You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Revelation 19:13-15 He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [14] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. [15] From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Revelation 12:5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

I can cite Protestant commentators, too. Baptist A. T. Robertson (Word Pictures in the New Testament – six volumes), says of Rev. 12:5: “There is here, of course, direct reference to the birth of Jesus from Mary”. Eerdmans Bible Commentary likewise states: “the ‘catching up’ is sufficiently similar to the victorious ascension of Jesus to make plain its real meaning in this context.”

Jamieson, Fausset,and Brown Commentary states: “rod of iron . . . ch. 2:27; Psalm 2:9, which passages prove the Lord Jesus to be meant. Any interpretation which ignores this must be wrong.” It also notes the reference to the ascension.

Yet you guys can’t see that this is referring to Jesus; therefore, that an interpretation that the mother of Jesus in this passage is Mary, cannot be ruled out? It can have a double application to the Church as well, but if we’re talking about Jesus’ mother, that has to be Mary, because Jesus wasn’t born of the Church; He set up the Church.

Well David, lets set some things straight – I DO NOT deny the virgin birth / immaculate conception of Christ (but that does not automatically make Mary sinless). There are OT references to the coming Messiah via virgin birth. Paul does not figure into anything to do with the acceptability of the process of Christs conception.

Yes, I have seen commentaries that say exactly what you are saying too. What I was trying to point out out is that not everyone agrees on the interpretations of ‘unfulfilled’ prophecy. So, if you want to go down that road – let’s maybe look at all the interpretations of Revelation that say that the Whore of Babylon is the RCC – I’m sure you can find many who do not hold this same view – but to go on ‘weight of numbers’, well that too is not scriptural. Majority vote is not the way God works.

The only Authority to be followed is what comes from God – you may believe that the RCC holds that authority – many don’t see that that is supported through scripture. Like I have pointed out – and as did Christ constantly throughout His ministry – traditions can be dangerous because they lead away from God and His Word (even when they do sound right and good and true – because they came from scripture, but with a twist) – Christ even said your traditions nullify the Word of God – how much more ‘stick to scripture’ do you need? Timothy is a classic – what was the traditions he was told to hold too? The instruction of the Law from his beginning (From his mother and Grandmother) i.e. don’t forsake the importance and need to uphold the Truth in all that you do – and the same in ministering to all. Continue to meet with fellow believers obey the sacraments (the ones prescribed in scripture). Where do all these ‘traditions’ stem from? The scriptures.

If you feel that your actions and approaches are correct and true, then that is between you and God – if your conscience is not pricked then maybe you are right or maybe you are blinded – it is not my place to determine. I for one see the dangers that Christ so readily despised and criticised in the Pharisees and Scribes (the ‘church’ of the OT if you will) and try to be conscious of discerning practices and traditions that may be following that poor example of the religious leaders of that time.

I search in vain for any answers to my arguments in your reply. Lots of non sequiturs, miscomprehension of the nature of my arguments, and you’re all over the ballpark (anything and everywhere except replying directly to me): the fabled Protestant “101 objections [to Catholicism]” routine. But like a lawyer who is stuck with a bad case, if you have no rational arguments and facts to bring to bear, you throw up whatever you can to obfuscate, and hope no one (in the lawyer’s case, juries) notices what you are doing.

I don’t think most Protestants who do this are even aware that they are doing it, because all they are focusing on is opposing Mary and any other distinctive Catholic teaching at all costs, no matter what Scripture has to say on the matter.

So what did I not answer Dave? – Yes I have seen interpretations of Revelation that say that passage refers to Christ – and if you want then to draw the conclusion that the woman, by definition MUST be Mary (even though Christ existed before her). Yes, as I said, I’ve seen it. I also stated earlier that I wouldn’t put my money on ANY of the interpretations to date (not because I specifically disagree with them) – so it’s not that I don’t answer your questions – it’s that you don’t like my answers perhaps?

Did I not agree with the immaculate conception?

Please point out what I did not answer? From what I can see I gave you the most honest response I can – I acknowledged that there are interpretations (apparently based on scripture) that support your argument – and yet there are others (also apparently based on scripture) that don’t. I’m not particularly interested in getting caught up in ‘what Revelation might mean’ – I take it basically as thus, that it is the Revelation from Christ to show that He has returned to Heaven, is in Authority and that He is moving to the time of His return. Wasting time looking for the ‘indicators’ and ‘signs’ may be of interest and benefit to others, but not to me – too many ‘false’ conclusions have been drawn from this book.

Thanks for your reply. Very instructive . . .

‎I DO NOT deny the virgin birth / immaculate conception of Christ . . . Did I not agree with the immaculate conception?

The only (huge) problem is that you don’t understand that the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary, not Christ. She was “immaculate” at the moment of her conception by a special act of grace by God, removing original sin from her soul. It helps discussion quite a bit to get the basic definitions of the things being disputed, correct.

OK, how do ‘we’ determine . . . that the immaculate was not that she conceived with out intercourse?

Again, you are thoroughly confused. That has nothing to do with the immaculate conception; that is the Virgin Birth. The immaculate conception is a development of the notion that Mary was without sin, and was the second Eve (very prominent in the Church Fathers). If you believe she was without sin, then upon reflection it was thought by the Church that she was also freed from original sin, by God’s grace. That takes it back to conception because that is when the soul is created directly by God, and where original sin is transmitted, since the fall of Adam and Eve.

The argument from biblical analogy that I made for the immaculate conception noted Isaiah being called from the womb (Is 49:1, 5); also Jeremiah (Jer 1:5). John the Baptist was “filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb” (Lk 1:15). Paul was called and set apart “even before I was born” (Gal 1:15). Being the Mother of God is a far greater role in the scheme of things than being a prophet or apostle; hence by analogy, we believe God especially sanctified Mary for her profound task: making her as Eve was before the fall and giving her extra grace (Lk 1:28).

It also seems possible to me that if Mary was not of the nature of man (by having no original sin), then Christ was not then from the seed of the woman – who was a ‘product’ of man.

This is another basic category error. Man does not have a “sin nature.” That is heresy and not NT teaching. Man’s nature is a thing that is distinct from original sin. It is not intrinsic to being human, that we have to be fallen. Hence, Jesus had a human nature as well as a divine nature, but both were without sin. Mary was a human being, yet without sin, just as Adam and Eve were human beings without sin, before the fall.

Dave, I get what your saying about immaculate conception (now) – seems a bit far fetched to me at this point. I can’t readily refute what you say, nor do I see anything to support it – I can’t see how those references you’ve listed actually make the case, so I’ll stick with “I don’t know” and accept that Mary was a very special person in the process of Gods plans and that Christ was born, to her a Virgin, as part of the fulfillment of prophecy.

Earlier in the discussion, Brian denied the doctrine of original sin, which is rank heresy:

It is true that Mary did not contract the guilt of Adam’s original sin, because nobody has. . . . Guilt simply is not inherited. The child does not bear the iniquity of the parent (Ezekiel 18:20). Human beings go astray; they are not born that way (cf. Isaiah 53:6). One is spiritually dead because of his personal sin (Ephesians 2:1), not due to the sin of others.

It is true that we aren’t responsible for the actual sins of others (I’ve written about that too). But original sin has to do with the entire human race falling, since we were “in” Adam. See my paper: Biblical Evidence for Original Sin.

***

woman of Revelation 12

Previous Post

January 11, 2016

Biblical Evidence for Original Sin

Next Post

January 12, 2016 Epistemology of My Catholic Conversion

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz