Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Theist vs. Atheist Burdens of Proof (Double Standards)

Theist vs. Atheist Burdens of Proof (Double Standards)

Last updated on: April 25, 2017 at 1:50 pm by Dave Armstrong

Theist vs. Atheist Burdens of Proof (Double Standards) 2017-04-25T13:50:22-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Court of Appeals Albany, New York, 14 October 2009 [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license]

* * *

The following exchange is from the combox of my post, Alvin Plantinga’s Refutation of the Logical Problem of Evil. Atheist John Donohue‘s words will be in blue.

* * * * *

A theist cannot sensibly claim theistic belief is rational without showing it is true. Moreover, the burden is on the theist, not the atheist.

The burden is on anyone who seeks truth. If you think atheism is true (even though it is a denial of something else), you’re still in effect making a claim about the universe and reality, and ought to be able to give reasons for it; not merely reasons for rejecting something else. I have compiled many links on the theistic arguments and also regarding critiques of atheism.

No, the burden of proof is on the theist. He is making the claim, namely that God exists. Period.

I know you would like to believe that atheism is a claim that God does not exist. Unfortunately for you, an atheist is merely saying “I’ve heard about these claims for god, but I do not subscribe to them.” And that, my friend is the truth. I do not believe in god. That is the only claim I am making.

You may send all people making the proactive claim –as atheists — they they have discovered the proof that “god does not exist” and I will help straighten them out.

The burden is on the theist.

You still have some sort of worldview, whatever you claim it is, or say about it. If you don’t think it can be defended, that just shows me that it’s not based in a rational understanding; or else you could and would defend whatever it is. But if you can’t, it must not be as reasonable as atheists routinely claim their views are.

We Christians do produce all kinds of rational arguments for our views. You guys reject ’em, but at least we make the effort to come up with rational arguments and defenses.

It is true that each person bears the burden of defending his/her beliefs/worldview with reason. No atheist bears that burden, except to prove that he/she does not believe in God. That is easy as pie to defend, it is simply a declaration. [unless you have insisted that those of us who do not believe in God are actually lying, and insist we prove it.]

A mere declaration is not a defense. You still must provide reasons for your belief in a godless universe. If you can’t, it’s an irrational belief-system: one of blind faith.

This is grounded in the fact that atheism means simply ‘without God’. I am atheistic, but my beliefs and convictions of truth conflict strongly with 85% of atheists in this world.

Christians present logical arguments for the existence of God, true. However, they are not rational. There is a difference. Purely ‘logical’ arguments have no rule against deploying non-existing (speculative, invented) existents in the chain of logic. Reason (rationality) on the other hand, requires both logic and facts: all existents in the chain of argument must be proven to exist with their characteristics and definitions identified.

This is why your arguments are refuted (not merely ‘rejected’).

I agree that there are false premises and unsubstantiated premises in play; but I think they are on the atheist side, not ours.

Try again: here is my postulation: “I, John Donohue, do not believe in God.” Are you telling me that this is not defensible when I state it? Are you saying I am lying? Are you saying you don’t stipulate this as true?

Your job is to defend your belief that God exists. I have no action points on that score. The burden is completely on you.

What do you believe, besides that there is no “God” (I get that)?

[revised version: “. . . besides not believing in God . . . “]

I have all kinds of defenses and links collections of defenses of theism and Christianity. You’ve come to the right place if you wanna see those.

No, you don’t get it.

I realize that your gambit — your only gambit — is to force my position to be that I “Believe there is no God.” I will continue to challenge you sharply every time you attempt it. I am not saying, nor do I need to say, “There is no God.” I am only saying “I do not believe in God.”

Perhaps this will help, a long form of it: I, John Donohue, have heard the claims of theists that something exists called “God”. There are many of you, and you’ve been around a long time, and you are very proactive in the world. You have hundreds and hundreds of different descriptions of God.

However, I do not believe in any version you are positing, because none of you have proved it to exist. When one of you proves God to exist, then I, and the rest of humanity, will actually know the qualities, characteristics of it, because it will be rationally identified. So stop trying to put these words in my mouth “There is no God.” Instead, it is your job to show that there is.

Now, on your other challenge, what do I believe in. My answer: that is not the subject. You don’t need to know. Do not construe this to mean I avoid the responsibility of proving my beliefs. I can and do. But not here. The subject here is the existence of God and therefore the solution to “The Problem of Evil.”

Alrightey. We’ll have to agree to disagree then.

Delighted to hear that you do indeed believe something (rather than merely reject sumpin’), and can defend it (but not here).

As stated, I have a ton of resources regarding defense of theism and Christianity. For many links on the problem of evil (including some of my own stuff), see the section devoted to that thorny problem.

Atheism & Agnosticism

Philosophy of Religion

reasonable faith

religious epistemology

theistic proofs

Previous Post

November 18, 2015

My Enjoyable Dinner and Discussion with Six Atheist Friends

Next Post

November 19, 2015 Atheist Insulter Extraordinaire: Acid-Mouthed Pete Migdale

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz