Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Ken Temple’s “Review” of Rod Bennett’s Book, “Four Witnesses”: Part II

Ken Temple’s “Review” of Rod Bennett’s Book, “Four Witnesses”: Part II

Last updated on: May 25, 2017 at 2:09 pm by Dave Armstrong

Ken Temple’s “Review” of Rod Bennett’s Book, “Four Witnesses”: Part II 2017-05-25T14:09:15-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Hans Burgkmair the Elder (1473-1531), The Whore of Babylon; sitting on the seven-headed beast, St John and the angel looking on from a cloud in top right corner. From a series of 21 woodcuts of the Apocalypse for Martin Luther’s translation of the New Testament (Augsburg: S. Otmar, 1523) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

(4-26-14)

***

See Part I and Part III

*

[link to the article being critiqued below]

***

I will be improving upon this, Lord willing, as time allows.

I sure hope so, because it is a pathetic historical “argument” thus far: wrong and incoherent at every turn.

This book and my friend’s conversion to Rome in 1996 was one of the main reasons I sought to understanding early church history and the early church fathers better, and apologetic answers to the issues that Rod was bringing to me.

Unfortunately, that understanding has advanced very little these last 18 years. And it won’t, as long as the fathers are viewed through the dim, decrepit glass or “filter” of anti-Catholic bias.

A few months after I returned from the mission field in Turkey, he called me (I think, it was sometime early in 1996 ? I cannot remember exactly) and invited me and my brother to his house. I had just been reading R. C. Sproul’s book, Faith Alone. It was a real shock when he announced he was converting to Roman Catholicism. We then had 8 years (1996-2004) of informal debates by sometimes 5 hour discussions, lunches, emails, phone calls, etc. Then, sometime in 2004, Rod told me he did not want to “debate” or discuss theology anymore.

I think we can see why . . . I spent 11 years online trying to debate anti-Catholics (the papers remain up on my Anti-Catholicism page) and finally gave up in 2007, since it was always a completely futile effort. This present effort is strictly an exception to my rule, as explained in Part I. The only redeeming value such exchanges have is for those reading, who may be able to be persuaded to see how very bad and misleading anti-Catholic arguments about the Church fathers are. Once in a blue moon an anti-Catholic is persuaded of the truthfulness of Catholicism. It does happen. Scott Hahn was an anti-Catholic. I was not; but I was extremely “pro-Protestant” as the superior option.

I was motivated to find answers, even though I basically knew that Roman Catholicism was wrong; I was seminary trained afterall (smile), and thought I had a fairly good grasp of church history. However, 3 courses in church history does not adequately prepare one for these arguments that most Evangelicals had never heard before.

Exactly right.

Rod was using a lot of Cardinal John Henry Newman and his “development of doctrine hypothesis” and other former Evangelical Protestants like Scott Hahn and similar arguments that other Roman Catholics, both former Evangelicals and cradle Catholics make, like . . . Jimmy Akin, Patrick Madrid, Mitch Pacwa, Robert Sungenis, Tim Staples, Peter Kreeft, Kenneth Howell, the Surprised by Truth book series, Karl Keating, Catholic Answers, etc. were making. That is what motivated me to find Dr. White’s materials, web-site, and debates (around 1996), and James Swan’s work here, and other good answers by William Webster, David King, Eric Svensen, R. C. Sproul, John Bugay, and Jason Engwer, Steve Hays, and others at Triablogue, Keith Matthison, Turretinfan’s blog, and Michael Kruger’s material on the canon.

We are what we eat. I’m familiar with all the anti-Catholics listed, excepting Kruger, and have refuted them all, again and again (see them listed under their names on my Anti-Catholicism page). Webster and King, especially, have shown times without number that they don’t have the slightest clue what they’re talking about, when it comes to Church history (i.e., in the conclusions they draw). Both men are completely out to sea when attempting to discuss Cardinal Newman and/or development of doctrine. One can either understand a subject matter or not. They do not. To see why I believe that (mine is not mere empty rhetoric), read the papers I have written about them. I’ve done the homework. I’ve shown how they distort facts and engage in sophistry and historical obfuscation and obscurantism. Even their own credentialed Protestant historians don’t agree with them.

Oddly enough,. Ken gravitates to the very worst historical argumentation from anti-Catholics with an axe to grind. We are what we eat. If this garbage is all that Ken reads on the topic (from his “side”), then he will come out regurgitating the same fallacious arguments. I know from personal experience with Ken, that he keeps repeating the same thing over and over, like a parrot, no matter how many times he is refuted. This is standard anti-Catholic methodology. If roundly refuted, simply assert the same thing again as if nothing had happened. It may impress, say, a six-year-old, but not a conscious, sane adult who actually understands what true dialogue and the burden of proof require.

Since that time, there has emerged other Evangelicals converting to Rome, such as the Called to Communion web-site and other folks like Jason Stellman and Frank Beckwith, also making the same basic arguments.

And we see the same desperate, pathetic, utterly fallacious, false “arguments” attempted by anti-Catholics against them.

I have waited a long time to publish this, because I never wanted to hurt Rod personally, and, the biggest reason, is that I also felt I really needed to study the issues deeper. I hope anyone and everyone who comments will keep the discussion to the issues and not go ad hominem or bombast on either side.

I think Ken is a nice guy. He’s probably the nicest anti-Catholic person I’ve met, and truly does refrain from ad hominem attacks. He writes mainly on a site whose owner is on record, saying (with a straight face!) that I am a psychotic. Steve Hays has said that I am of “evil character” and Eric Svendsen (since, thankfully departed from the Internet) made a satirical spoof claiming that I am in league with Holocaust deniers. “Dr.” (???) White has made every insult under the sun about me.

But despite all, hanging around all these slanderers, whom he trusts as legitimate sources for serious theological and historical argument, Ken maintains his gentlemanly demeanor. I greatly appreciate and commend that. It’s his arguments that I think are atrocious and terrible. It’s not “personal” on my end anymore than it is personal from Ken against Rod (I believe him when he states that). But bearing false witness against fellow Christians (in the doctrinal sense) is a serious offense. That is what we object to.

I will delete any comment I think is mocking or bombast or ad hominem or off topic. Another reason I have not done this before is that I personally think some on my side are too hot-headed and mocking; and that is not a good witness for Christ.

Very true, and I commend Ken for saying it. Believe me, I know, having been on the receiving end of such mockery online for 18 years.

As an additional note, I really appreciate what Dr. White has been saying recently on recent Dividing Line programs; to some other Reformed folks who go overboard against Arminians and Charismatics and those that are not balanced when dealing with Muslims and Islam. We need to both stand for the truth and be godly in our behavior. Let that be a warning.

And let it become a trend. But, sadly, I see no sign whatever of that happening. Ken would have to rebuke the folks above publicly and by name, if he thinks it would ever stop or even lessen. But if he did that, he’d quickly become a pariah in his own community and would be outcast. Anti-Catholics don’t police themselves. Ken makes these general condemnations of insults, which is good, but he won’t rebuke specific examples of it by the big shots of anti-Catholicism. So nothing really changes. Glad to see “Dr.” [???] White softening a bit about Arminians. Back in 1995, in our postal debate, he claimed that I was never truly a Protestant because I wasn’t a Calvinist.

Please pray for Rod Bennett. If and when Rod sees this, I hope he will see my efforts are focused on doctrines and principles and issues, historical facts, and not ad hominem attacks.

I think he would see that. I see it. But the arguments are absolutely pathetic and weak. That‘s what I assert, and Rod would agree, no doubt.

Except for baptismal regeneration, none of the dogmas or doctrines that Rome claims were there, were actually there, in the same way that Rome promotes them today.

“In the same way” refers to development of doctrine, which is a huge discussion, and a topic that anti-Catholics to a person misunderstand or don’t understand at all. I have the experience in debate with them to make this claim, believe me.

(Baptismal regeneration is the one belief in the early church that seems to be there; but without the ex opere operato RC take on it; but, even then, I sincerely believe that the early comments and interpretions on John 3:5 and Titus 3:5, and related passages, etc. were wrong on that issue. It was a wrong interpretation of the Biblical texts.)

If Ken can see this fact, then it is within the realm of possibility that he can come to see that a host of other Catholic doctrines were also present in the fathers. A ray of hope . . .

Just because the early church used the words “catholic” or “eucharist” or “tradition” or “bishop”, etc. does not mean what Rome claims they mean.

I will see how he argues these things specifically, in Part III. It’s easy to assert things; much more difficult to demonstrate them.

* * * * *

Anti-Catholicism

Fathers of the Church

Previous Post

April 25, 2014

Ken Temple's "Review" of Rod Bennett's Book, "Four Witnesses": Part I

Next Post

April 26, 2014 Ken Temple's "Review" of Rod Bennett's Book, "Four Witnesses": Part III

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz