Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Pope Francis & Pope Benedict XVI Refer to “Extreme Traditionalism”

Pope Francis & Pope Benedict XVI Refer to “Extreme Traditionalism”

Last updated on: May 27, 2017 at 4:27 pm by Dave Armstrong

Pope Francis & Pope Benedict XVI Refer to “Extreme Traditionalism” 2017-05-27T16:27:06-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Pope Benedict XVI during a visit to São Paulo, Brazil

. Photo by Fabio Pozzebom, 10 May 2007. [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Brazil license]

***

(8-5-13)

***

I have recently decided to cease using the term radtrad in deference to the expressed wishes of mainstream “traditionalists” who are (in large numbers, we are told) offended by it, since they contend that it implicates all “traditionalists” and that radtrad implies a spectrum upon which both the radtrad and “traditionalist” sit.

***

After thought and reflection (and having my sincerity and intentions and seriousness attacked by “traditionalists” and what I now will be calling “radical Catholic reactionaries”), I decided (cutting through the flak and the silliness) to make the change, as an effort in charity, and of bridge-building. St. Paul taught us in the Bible, after all:

Romans 14:21 it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble.

It’s good to apply this injunction widely and freely. At the same time, I maintained that I had not done anything intrinsically “wrong” by using the term radtrad. The “traditionalist” objection was perhaps crystallized in an article by Kevin M. Tierney, entitled, “Why We Should Stop Saying ‘Radical Traditionalist’ and ‘Rad Trad'” (Catholic Lane, 7-30-13). Some excerpts:

At best the phrase is a relic of a time that is no longer relevant. At worst, the term is creating animosity and perpetuating a growing sense of tribalism within Catholicism, especially in America. . . .

If we take this distinction seriously, then how can one not say that implicit in all traditionalists is a rebellious spirit that will embrace erroneous views or enter into schism? Let us set the record straight: Stating an ecumenical council actually teaches heretical doctrine is wrong no matter who makes that claim. Deliberately separating yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff is wrong no matter what language we like our liturgy in. If you believe there are good traditionalists, then it must follow that these so called radical traditionalists aren’t actually traditionalists at all.

If we take this distinction seriously, then how can one not say that implicit in all traditionalists is a rebellious spirit that will embrace erroneous views or enter into schism? . . . If you believe there are good traditionalists, then it must follow that these so called radical traditionalists aren’t actually traditionalists at all.

In a comment on his own website on 2 August 2013, Kevin made his criticism even more pointed:

In this climate we’re going to plant our flag upon a term invented as an insult for a polemical age? Or if we choose something else, still use it as an insult which you know will stigmatize people? It seems entirely alien to the times. How often do you think people are going to come back to full communion when they have some insulting name attached to them?

And again, the day before (replying directly to me):

We would love to have you in the interest of charity stop using those terms. Not because anyone deserves it, or this or that compromise has been made, but because it’s the right thing to do.

Kevin also made the claim (7-31-13 on his site) that the Church doesn’t use such terminology (it was — I guess he thinks — merely invented by us wascally wascal apologists and our ilk):

There’s a reason Holy Mother Church doesn’t call the SSPX or sedevacantists “radtrads” even though she seriously disagrees with their positions. . . .

You lose nothing from dropping that term. In fact, you gain something: you’d be stunned how much goodwill you can come to the table with when you aren’t starting out your discussion by mocking someone. . . .

This is the way of the Church, following her should be sufficient.

In the end, I’ll grant you the right strictly speaking to use such labels. Yet why don’t we ask ourselves: Is this actually doing any good?

Again, replying directly to me on his site (7-29-13), Kevin opines:

We really don’t need a name. . . .

So let’s not say it is required. It is required for YOU. YOU feel the need to label everything for your own conscience sake. . . .

So the errors of those you call “radtrads” are just wrong, and just classify them as wrong. That you feel the need to continue a classification to make things easy on yourself…. just proves that the apologetics approach to things isn’t always the best approach.

Now, lo and behold, I learned last night that Pope Francis has recently used the same sort of terminology as radtrad: “extreme traditionalists.” Thus, he violated the “code of conduct” that Kevin has been writing so vehemently about (with the extra irony of Kevin appealing in part to the pope in his argument that radtrad or suchlike is a remnant of a bygone era). Here is what the Holy Father stated in an interview in late May, as translated by Fr. Tim Finigan on his “traditionalist” site, The Hermeneutic of Continuity (granted the “traditionalist” seal of approval from Fr. John Zuhlsdorf):

Then it was the turn of the bishop of Conversano and Monopoli, Domenico Padovano, who recounted to the clergy of his diocese how the priority of the bishops of the region of Tavoliere had been that of explaining to the Pope that the mass in the old rite was creating great divisions within the Church. The underlying message: Summorum Pontificum should be cancelled, or at least strongly limited. But Francis said no.

Mgr Padovano explained that Francis replied to them saying that they should be vigilant over the extremism of certain traditionalist groups but also suggesting that they should treasure tradition and create the necessary conditions so that tradition might be able to live alongside innovation. [my bolding]

The Italian, from the article Fr. Finigan was translating, reads: “estremismi di certi gruppi tradizionalisti”.

Is that so? In one fell swoop, then, the Holy Father “refutes” this entire line of reasoning that Kevin has adopted for his proposal, which is sound on other less absolute (or excessively “dogmatic”) grounds. The argument from charity and bridge-building; avoiding offense, is a good one, and I agree and am acting accordingly. But insofar as Kevin and others wish to make the case that we who have used the term radtrad were — all along — insufferably arrogant and insulting (complete with his pseudo-psychological jargon about our supposedly nefarious need to create unnecessary and divisive “labels”), it falls completely flat, since the pope is on our side.

I don’t see any way of overcoming this. It’s not a matter of an infallible statement. That’s irrelevant. The point here is that the pope casually used a term in description of certain “traditionalists.” It was in his head; it wasn’t utterly foreign to his thinking. It wasn’t foreign at all. Kevin claimed that it shouldn’t be done, but the pope did it (back to the “more Catholic the the pope” theme!).

Pope Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Ratzinger, before he became pope, used the same terms:

Whoever accepts Vatican II, as it has clearly expressed and understood itself, at the same time accepts the whole binding tradition of the Catholic Church, particularly also the two previous councils . . . It is likewise impossible to decide in favor of Trent and Vatican I but against Vatican II. Whoever denies Vatican II denies the authority that upholds the other two councils and thereby detaches them from their foundation. And this applies to the so-called ‘traditionalism,’ also in its extreme forms. . . . It is our fault if we have at times provided a pretext (to the ‘right’ and ‘left’ alike) to view Vatican II as a ‘break’ and an abandonment of the tradition.

(The Ratzinger Report, San Francisco: Ignatius, 1985, 28-29, 31)

Therefore, in summary, certain things follow:

1) Kevin argued that radtrad is not the language of the magisterial Church. Why, then, did (and do) folks like Mark Shea, Jimmy Akin, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Dr. Taylor Marshall, Pete Vere, myself, and others use it? Kevin argued that it was the apologetics mentality and polemical overkill and an extreme lack of charity. Unfortunately, for his case, it turns out that the Church as represented by the current pope and the previous one, actually does see things in these terms. “Extremist traditionalist” or “so-called ‘traditionalism’ . . . in its extreme forms” represent precisely the same sort of language that has been used for years by critics of radical Catholic reactionaries in the apologetics world (a use that Kevin has characterized as “dumb”). See, for example, the “Ultra-Traditionalism” page at The Catholic Legate or the longstanding web page from apologist “Matt1618”: “Ultra-Traditionalists”.

“Extremist traditionalist” and “so-called ‘traditionalism’ . . . in its extreme forms” are clearly synonyms of both “ultra-” or “radical traditionalism” (i.e., radtrad). In fact, the two popes use precisely the same terminology that I utilized in my recent book, originally entitled*, Mass Movements: The Extreme Wing of “Traditionalism,” the New Mass, and Ecumenism*. That book came out in December, so I was using that phraseology five months before the Holy Father’s documented use of it in May.

Moreover, I have used similar language in the name of my web page devoted to radical Catholic reactionaries (RCRs or “RadCathRs” in my recently adopted terminology); e.g., (formerly): Catholic “Traditionalism” and its Extremist “Radtrad” Fringe. I am planning (as of this writing) on changing the name of both, in order to avoid “traditionalists” feeling that they are being tarred with the same brush (they never were in my analyses, but they thought they were). I probably still will, but (precisely as I stated), it is not because I was “wrong” — Period! — It’s because I am trying to avoid needless offense.

2) A second argument from Kevin and his allies also falls flat. This was the objection to the so-called “spectrum.” Most apologists who have been dealing with the phenomenon of radical Catholic reactionaries have noted that there is a spectrum, whereby if one keeps moving further to the “right” one can end up in the SSPX, or further than that, sedevacantism (the view holding that there is no sitting pope). Mainstream “traditionalists” object to this (which is precisely the main thing lying behind Kevin’s loud complaint and article referenced above). They deny that they are on any sort of spectrum with what we have been calling radtrads. They see themselves as the only “traditionalists” worthy of that name, and the radtrads or extremists or ultras as merely wackos and wingnuts.

The problem here, again, is that the pope didn’t follow that line of thinking at all. He used the description, “the extremism of certain traditionalist groups.” Thus, for him, they are on the same spectrum as “traditionalists.” There are “traditionalists” who are “extreme,” just as there are those who are “radical” or “ultra.” He didn’t completely oppose the extremists from the “traditionalists”; rather, they were on the far right of the same spectrum. The “traditionalist” label is still there as part of it (what Kevin and “traditionalists” en masse — so we are told — object to so stridently). Pope Benedict XVI did the same by referring to “the ‘right’ and ‘left'”.

This has been our thinking as apologists and defenders of the pope and Vatican II and Holy Mother Church, and it is confirmed as correct. I pointedly denied the argument about the lack of a spectrum, at the same time I was willing to change my terminology, and changing the terms is no evidence whatsoever that I am denying a spectrum.

3) An argument has been set forth by Kevin and some of his friends (notably, Jeffrey Stuart), that radtrad was the “immoral equivalent” of neo-Catholic. The latter is the pet term used by radical Catholic reactionaries such as Chris Ferrara and John Vennari, and The Remnant website and organization. We plain old “Catholics” to whom it is directed have objected for years, on the grounds that it has no pedigree or history of usage in the Church. But this was laughed off, and it was said that the two are instances of the exact same thing (i.e., we are hypocrites for objecting to neo-Catholic while using radtrad). Thus, in his Catholic Lane article, Kevin explains how he used it himself up till 2005, and then saw the light and stopped. Now he argues that radtrad is the polemical equivalent, thrown back at the radicals who use neo-Catholic: as if we have been making the same mistake that he used to commit.

But again, it is exactly as I have argued: radtrad has a parallel in papal usage, in “extreme traditionalism,” whereas neo-Catholic is non-existent in magisterial Church usage. If Kevin or his friends think otherwise, they are welcome to produce proof that it has ever been used by popes or the Church (the magisterium).

If we want a pure “insult,” there it is. But if radtrad is a pure insult, then the Holy Father is entering into the same thinking and usage, by his equivalent term, “extremist traditionalist.”

4) Pope Benedict XVI also bolsters my argument that I’ve made for at least 15 years now, that “traditionalist” itself should be an unnecessary term to use. He does this by referring to “the so-called ‘traditionalism.’ ” I do it by almost always putting the word in quotation marks. I’m willing to use it, because this is how people refer to themselves and how others refer to them, but with this little “protest”: precisely as Pope Benedict XVI did (as Cardinal Ratzinger).

Kevin Tierney tries to make an analogy of “traditionalist” with “Dominicans” or “Franciscans” etc. But can we imagine a pope referring to “the so-called ‘Dominicans'”? Isn’t it great to “think with the Church”?

Methinks Kevin’s “big” article and many others on his own website are in need of some serous revision. I’ll be spending scores of hours of my time removing terms out of charity that were never intrinsically “wrong.” Now it’s Kevin’s turn to revise several of his arguments that engage in massive rhetorical overkill and melodramatic exaggeration, in light of two popes’ remarks. If I can do it out of charity to “traditionalists,” he ought to do it, too, in deference to (and in light of) popes. As he himself stated just six days ago: “This is the way of the Church, following her should be sufficient.”

Amen!

*****

Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries

Catholic traditionalists

Radical Catholic Reactionaries

Previous Post

July 3, 2013

On the Use of "Traditionalist" Preceding the Name of "Catholic"

Next Post

August 6, 2013 Thoughts on the Discarded Term, "Radtrad"

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz