Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Debate on Abortion with an Atheist (with Reductio ad Absurdum)

Debate on Abortion with an Atheist (with Reductio ad Absurdum)

Last updated on: May 28, 2017 at 6:32 pm by Dave Armstrong

Debate on Abortion with an Atheist (with Reductio ad Absurdum) 2017-05-28T18:32:13-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Flickr; image by “kambodza” (7-7-06) [CC BY 2.0 license]

***

(5-2-12)

* * *

From a discussion thread on Facebook, about President Obama’s support of partial-birth infanticide. My dialogue opponent, Tim Allen, is an atheist, according to his Facebook “About” page, and by his own statement in the exchange. His words will be in blue.

* * *

It is important to understand precisely what the reductio ad absurdum technique in logic and dialogue is, in order to not misunderstand its nature and intention (as Tim did). If you’re not familiar with it, I urge you to follow the link to the words above and read a short description of it (here’s also a longer, technical explanation). Then you’ll know what I was trying to do in this dialogue. I am not actually in favor of killing atheists!!!

***

I use this ancient form of argumentation quite often in my apologetics; especially in disputing positions that I consider self-evidently absurd and or evil (as this position is, to extraordinary degrees in both respects). Unfortunately, it’s usually misunderstood (because logic and ability to constructively dialogue and debate are mostly lost arts today), but it is a perfectly legitimate, sensible, and highly effective way to argue against a position.

* * * * *

Partial-birth abortion is performed on full-term babies. All that is necessary is for the baby to be delivered to the neck; then the scissors are used, and the child’s brains sucked out. We call this “enlightened civilization” and “pro-choice.” Lots of people think this is “okay.” The bill passed the US Senate. Many Democrats (as usual) voted for it [and the usual liberal Republican RINOs, too], though some drew the line.

I’m not looking for a heated debate or anything, but for me personally, I think ending the life of a nearly-born baby is better than ruining the lives of an actually-born baby and his real life mother (and potentially harming the lives of many others). For me, abortion is a cost-benefit analysis about harming one versus harming many.

That’s morally absurd. Murder can never be justified. Love demands that we strive for a better life for the born, and the right to life of the preborn. Only barbarian societies slaughter their own. Do we never learn? Was not the Holocaust sufficient to put an end to this mass slaughter and genocide? The fact that you are sitting here writing this is a self-evident argument against abortion. You were allowed to live. Life has a self-evident value and worth.

I disagree that it is morally absurd. Many, many lives have been ruined by unwanted pregnancies – including the lives of the children – and I think it is morally acceptable to sacrifice a non-person for the greater good of actual, living human beings.

***

Fair enough. I think atheism ruins the life of many. Therefore, I advocate killing all atheists, so these lives won’t be ruined: for the greater good of actual, living human beings who aren’t atheists. [reductio ad absurdum] <—- bracketed comment in original discussion.

Alright, my bad. I thought you wanted an actual conversation about this stuff. That’s my fault for assuming. Have a good one.

***

You’ve never heard of reductio ad absurdum? Look it up. Part of logic and philosophy . . . This is indeed a very serious discussion: dead serious (or was, since you now depart it). So the dead serious discussion is now seriously dead . . .

I’ve heard of reductio ad absurdum. I’ve also heard of the straw man argument…

***

Here is the reasoning (that you appear to have missed):

Many lives are ruined by unwanted pregnancies: of mothers and of the children born.

Therefore, in order to prevent these ruined lives, we ought to kill the children, in order to prevent what may, or likely (?) will occur.

By analogy:

1a. Many lives are ruined by atheism and its (from logical reduction) counsel of despair.

2a. (1+2) presupposes that events and persons who cause or have ruined lives should be eliminated for the good of all.

3a. Therefore, granting the truth of 1a, by analogy it is rational and for the good of society to kill atheists who promulgate the harmful philosophy / worldview.

I deny the truthfulness of proposition 1. People acting in an evil fashion cause misery (and have a free will choice to act otherwise): not the mere fact that a child is born.

You deny the truthfulness of proposition 1a. But the logic works the same in both instances. I am following your own logic and turning the tables on you. Your task is to show why 1a doesn’t follow from your adopted premise 1.

But all of this went over your head and you responded with: “I thought you wanted an actual conversation about this stuff” and “I’ve also heard of the straw man argument.”

Fine. You may not get it, but others will.

Just because a person doesn’t agree with your argument doesn’t mean they don’t understand it or that they’re too stupid to grasp your concepts. And, as an atheist myself, I can personally attest to the fact that I am not in “despair”. Your level of condescension is ridiculous.

Why do you disagree? I didn’t say you were personally in despair. I said that atheism was “(from logical reduction) [a] counsel of despair”). Just as atheists routinely claim that Christianity is by logical reduction, infantile, and blind, irrational faith . . .

I don’t know anything about you, except that you are an atheist, and that you haven’t yet grasped my current logic. Whether that is a general occurrence or not, of course I don’t know. But I know it is true in this instance. Your replies prove that.

So I am challenging you, logically. I’m playing Socrates, as I have done for 35 years, since my Intro. to Philosophy class in college [with the illustrious Dr. Lawrence Lombard].

It’s also routine (seen all the time) that a person who doesn’t grasp the logic of a reductio ad absurdum, will feel that it is mere ridicule and condescension and personal disdain. Well, in a way it is that towards bad logic and conclusions, but not necessarily towards persons at all.

Well, any atheist who claims that Christianity is infantile is just as wrong as a Christian who claims atheism is “(from logical reduction) counsel of despair”.

***

I haven’t grasped your logic? Or I haven’t agreed with it? That’s the distinction that I think you need to make.

Atheists are actual human beings. Aborted fetuses are not. That’s why the analogy you made falls apart. And when you start equating abortion with the Holocaust, you are intentionally using hyperbole to ridicule the other person’s point. You can use whatever Latin term you learned 35 years ago in Intro to Philosophy to justify it, but in reality, that’s just weak sauce.

I think the location is the more important piece than the ontological change. I should clarify: I think the location [i.e., birth] is the more important piece when determining personhood. Until the actual birth, they are still dependent on the mother to receive their oxygen and nutrients through the umbilical cord. Once the birth happens, they are able to breath and receive nutrients independently. I think that is a critical factor. If a mother is eight months pregnant and she dies, the baby will almost certainly die with her. If a baby is one month old and the mother dies, the baby will still live. . . . Feeding tubes and ventilators are artificial means of sustaining life, not a direct mother-to-fetus connection. Babies can’t feed themselves or protect themselves, that’s true. But their dependency at that point is not based on a direct, physiological attachment to the mother. I think its that direct, physiological connection that is a defining characteristic between a fetus and a human baby.

No problem. I don’t think atheists are human beings, then. If you can define away a preborn child based on nonexistent reasoning and no basis whatsoever other than that they are small and hidden (and sometimes “unwanted”), then I can apply the same “reasoning” to other categories of persons; in this case, atheists. The analogy still holds. I use your premises all down the line and refute them by reductio.

You don’t think small people are “human beings”; I come back and [in a similar manner, by reductio] arbitrarily claim that atheists aren’t, because they lack the religious sense that the vast majority of mankind has always possessed. The Nazis defined Jews as “vermin” and disposable because they didn’t like them. America in the 19th century did the same with Native Americans, and virtually towards African-Americans. too.

Today, little people just starting out their lives are the target of murder and disdain. Logically, if you apply this “reasoning” to them, it can easily be spread to other categories of people. So I used your own group, to (try to) bring the point home to you.

The viability argument is so medically and philosophically ridiculous that I hesitate to even rebut it. I’ll simply note that the criteria of the beginning and end of life are the same. We determine that a person dies by cessation of brain waves and heartbeat. Heartbeat is present in a preborn human being at about 18 days; brain waves by six weeks or so. This all usually occurs before a woman even is aware that she is pregnant. All the DNA that is ever present throughout a person’s life is in place at conception. By the latter criteria, humanity is present from the very beginning. But if we wish to go by either heartbeat or brain waves, then this child is a human being by 18 days or six weeks at the latest: early enough to preclude almost all abortions that take place.

Dave, I never once mentioned brain waves or a heartbeat, so I don’t know who you’re arguing with there.

***

I know you didn’t So what? That has nothing to do with my response. It’s another analogy that you missed (end-of-life criteria compared to beginning of life).

And I stopped reading your earlier response after the first paragraph when you claimed I had “nonexistent reasoning” and “no basis whatsoever”.

***

Great; stop reading then. This exchange is not primarily for your benefit, anyway. You are beyond this particular reasoning at this time. The sad thing is that your “reasoning” leads directly to the continuance of genocide against preborn human beings. Your philosophy (or anti-philosophy) has very dire consequences. Thus it must be opposed, and sometimes strong language [directed against bad arguments, not persons] is completely justified in doing so. This is a very serious business; not just throwing around concepts for fun. It’s lousy thinking that leads to evil consequences and yet more needless, preventable suffering for human beings.

But see, needless and preventable suffering is what I want to stop, too. Single mothers who want to go to school and have a career, but can’t because they have a child at 16. Babies who are born to drug addicts or to mothers with HIV who have a very little chance of living a normal and healthy life. Women who are impregnated after being raped and do not want a permanent reminder of that traumatic event. All of that is needless, preventable suffering and abortion is an effective means of prevention. And yes, there are things like adoption and foster families that can help in those situations. And some babies in bad situations grow to be great people. But those are the exceptions, not the norms.

***

I don’t think abortion is a “good thing”. I would never encourage someone to use it as a toy or to use it as a form of birth control. But it is a “necessary evil”, so to speak, because I would rather see a fetus aborted – a fetus who is still directly and physiologically connected to the mother, and cannot form complex thoughts about its own destruction – than to see actual human beings have their lives ruined, which in turn, will harm society at large. . . . I believe that a person becomes a person upon birth, when he or she is no longer directly and physiologically dependent upon the birth mother for oxygen and nutrients.

Obama is certainly is in favor of partial-birth abortion, or has historically been. He also voted for a bill that would allow the killing of children born as a result of botched abortions, as I already noted. Here is the record. Here’s another article (Washington Post). Obama gets 100% ratings from NARAL. It’s well-known that Obama is the most pro-abort President in history. He has voted for partial-birth abortion more than once. And that’s what the photo describes. It is 100% accurate. No distortion.

By voting for a person who holds such evil positions, a person makes the acts that result possible, and helps promote them.

My position is that a fetus becomes a person when he or she is no longer directly and physiologically dependent on his or her birth mother. Therefore, examples like feeding tubes, people after car accidents, and mothering after birth do not count, since those are all either artificial or indirect. I don’t really care what “pro-choice ethicists” say. This is my own opinion.

I think it was an excellent discussion: not in and of itself, but for the purpose of demonstrating through logic and criticism that the atheist pro-abortion argument is entirely groundless and irrational, as well as immoral to its core. Tim is just as much a victim of such outrageous thinking as he is a promulgator of it.

The only difference is that he himself is not tortured and murdered. He can sit in his armchair and wax eloquent about such monstrosities, while the babies continue to be legally killed every day (3500+). It’s not abstract for them . . . it has very real consequences.

The problem with people like Dave, and the reason that it is nearly impossible to have a civilized discussion on abortion (and other key issues), is that they think they have a monopoly on the truth and on morality. It is not enough for a person who disagrees with his opinion to merely be wrong in his eyes, but that person must be a fool who fails to grasp even the simplest concepts of the topic. Honest arguments that are given by the other side are dismissed as “illogical” and “entirely groundless”, merely because they do not agree with his opinion.

Jon, Dan and others in this conversation disagree with my opinion on abortion. That’s fine. I don’t expect or need everybody to agree with my opinion on when life begins, when abortion is acceptable, etc. That’s the beauty of this whole thing is that people can disagree on major topics and still be civil.

Unfortunately, Dave’s not interested in having civil discussions. He’s interested in trolling for hits from his friends (who already agree with him) and baiting those who oppose him into arguments, so he can demonstrate his academic superiority. To do this, he uses hyperbole and he uses pseudo-philosophical buzz words that sound impressive.

It’s not a new strategy, but it is still sad all the same.

Note, folks, that it’s all personal attack and smarmy psychoanalysis now. No effort to respond rationally at all . . . My criticisms, on the other hand, were directed solely towards bad arguments or unwillingness to interact with opposing arguments, not at persons. If they did spill over a little bit to persons, it was not my intention, and I apologize if so. My intention is always to attack bad reasoning and arguments. Unfortunately, people often take that personally. They can’t separate their positions from themselves as persons: hold them abstractly during exchanges back and forth, if you will.

But name-calling is a fitting ending, proving my point in spades. Oftentimes when rational defense is not forthcoming, a person will stoop to mere personal attack. I am particularly despised by Jon mostly because I dared to use the reductio ad absurdum. It makes lots of folks very angry. Nothing new at all. Socrates was killed because of that sort of argument and his generally provocative nature. I’m sure he was called just as many names as we see here. :-)

Previous Post

April 18, 2012

Books by Dave Armstrong: "The Quotable Wesley"

Next Post

May 13, 2012 Books by Dave Armstrong: "Beatles, Motown, Beach Boys, Etc."

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz