Buddhist Catholic Contemplative Evangelical General Christian Hindu Jewish Latter-day Saint Muslim New Visions Progressive Christian

Beliefs

Topics

Columnists

Resource Library

Research Tools

Video

Podcasts

Thought Readers

Faith In Media Tracker

Newsletters

Ad-Free & Subscriber Log-In Subscription Support

Follow Patheos

Home
Catholic
History and Religion
Anti-Catholic Myth of Catholic Apostasy: Analogous to Jewish Rejection?

Anti-Catholic Myth of Catholic Apostasy: Analogous to Jewish Rejection?

Last updated on: June 6, 2026 at 12:26 am by Dave Armstrong

Anti-Catholic Myth of Catholic Apostasy: Analogous to Jewish Rejection? 2026-06-06T00:26:41-04:00 Dave Armstrong

LOGO Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Patheos has the views of the prevalent religions and spiritualities of the world.

Twin Scourges (551x833)

[see full book and purchase information]

***

(12-8-09)

*****

Pito, a commenter on my blog, has asked some very penetrating questions, that I took a crack at answering:

*****

I was just wondering whether Catholics are permitted to believe that God gave Moses an Oral as well as a Written Torah on the Mountain, as Orthodox Jews believe, however corrupt some of the Pharisees may have been or made the Law?

Sure. I have used the argument myself, as an analogy to Tradition, over against written Scripture. The Pharisaical tradition was the mainstream of Judaism in Christ’s time. Jesus followed it, so did Paul (he called himself a Pharisee twice, after his conversion). And the Pharisees believed in oral tradition, originally given to Moses, and developed over time. It was the Sadducees who denied this. They were the liberals and “sola Scripturists” of that time.

As a follow-up to my first question on the Oral Torah, I’d like to add that it seems to me that Catholics may believe that the Talmudim, Midrashim, Aggadot and most major Jewish Law codes accurately record it. The trouble I have with this is reconciling this with the question of where the Jews went wrong, why we should believe they did, and your thoughts on why God would allow that to happen, as this general Christian claim appears analogous to me to the anti-Catholic argument that the Church became corrupt at an arbitrary point in history.

Very interesting question. I don’t know all the ins and outs of how the oral law in Judaism works, so I’ll pass on that and leave it to experts in that area.

I think Christianity is a consistent development of Judaism, and have argued that all along (many papers). Where they went wrong was not so much in theology (Jewish beliefs rightly-understood; they are often caricatured and distorted by Christians) but in rejecting the Messiah.

That was the crucial turning-point. Essentially, they rejected the new Christian movement and neglected to see that it was the line of “development” that God desired in salvation history. So it was far more so (at least at first) their rejecting us, rather than our rejecting them. So the forerunner rejected the developer and “progressive.” But with anti-Catholics it is the self-defined “progressives” who are rejecting their own forerunners: the opposite of the Jewish-Christian dynamic. And for our part, we see the Protestant movement as a corruption, where it departs from received tradition, but still part of the Christian fold in an imperfect way (whereas anti-Catholic Protestants remove us from the same fold).

The Jews rejected the true Messiah, Jesus. That is indisputable. The only thing under dispute is whether He was the Messiah. Obviously, all Christians believe that He was. So traditional Jews look at Christianity the way that we view cults such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, who claim to be Christian but really aren’t. We claim to be a consistent development of Judaism, but orthodox Jews think we corrupted Judaism, especially in holding that Jesus is God and believing in the Trinity: which they see as fundamentally inconsistent with monotheism.

With anti-Catholics, on the other hand, it is two rival Christian groups. They claim (commonly, though there are variations) that the Catholic Church formerly rejected the gospel at Trent, thus removing itself from the orthodox Christian sphere. So they reject the Catholic Church, thinking that the “ball” was passed on to them in the 16th century; we blew it (so they say), and the Catholic “train” derailed at that time (or far earlier, according to the particular myth employed).

But that is altogether in dispute (what the gospel is and whether we rejected it), is unlike the historical question of the Jews denying that Jesus was Messiah and Lord.

Unlike our saying that Christianity consistently developed from Judaism, with the Jews rejecting the direction we took it, the anti-Catholic Protestant claims that Catholicism was long since corrupt. They want to deny (or at least radically de-emphasize) their Catholic historical pedigree as much as they can, and hearken back to the fathers in alleged support for their novelties. But they lose the historical argument every time.

Therefore, their position is built on a self-defeating fallacy from the get-go. They are confused about the nature of the Church, about development, and about what the fathers actually believed.

But they refuse to argue the fundamental issues of what a Christian is, and what the gospel is. It was for that very reason that I gave up trying to debate with them almost three years ago now. If the fundamental disagreements aren’t discussed, there is no hope of accomplishing anything, because even a robust disagreement has to be discussed by agreeing on something at some primitive point in the spectrum of premises and conclusions drawn from them.

I contend that anti-Catholics are wrong about the definition of the gospel, and wrong about their claim that we supposedly rejected it, and about soteriology, in many ways. They’re wrong about the fathers supposedly supporting them far more so than us, and about a host of caricatures of our theology.

At least I can refute their false claims by dealing with John Calvin, as I have been doing. But he has just about driven me batty with all his sophistries, distortions, gratuitous, stupid insults, and falsehoods. The end of that project is near, God be praised!

I would also add that anti-Catholic Protestantism doesn’t grasp the notion of ecclesiological indefectibility. This is part of their viciously self-defeating understanding.

If the Catholic Church was ever the Church, it could never have fallen away, for the simple reason that God had been specially protecting it from error, in a way that He never promised to protect the Jews. After the Resurrection and Ascension, many things changed. We have the indwelling Spirit. God guides us, and protects the Church from error. For an anti-Catholic to think that was somehow lost in one fell swoop, is absurd. There is no such thing as that in the Bible.

So the basic anti-Catholic dilemma and absurdity is in asserting either:

A) The Catholic Church of history never was the true Church at any time.

or:

B) The Catholic Church of history was the true Church but fell away completely (or nearly so) from Christianity.

A is extremely hard to assert because it is radically ahistorical. The only way to argue that with even the remotest plausibility (and I mean remote!) is to go the route of the Landmark Baptists, who try to create a fanciful Church history or pseudo-apostolic succession minus the Catholic Church. That is historically ludicrous and breaks down immediately under any kind of scrutiny.

Position B runs into inexorable difficulties regarding the biblical view of what the Church is and how God preserves her. Thus, A wages a losing battle with history and B with the Bible.

Conclusion: anti-Catholicism is radically, inevitably self-defeating and therefore false.

Bible, history, and reason alike are on the Catholic side in this debate.

I am accused when I say stuff like this, of circular reasoning. But it is not, because I argue all the major particulars in various papers and books. One can assert without exhaustive argument, provided he or she does provide the necessary supporting arguments elsewhere. And I have done so, in 19 books and almost 2500 papers.

Previous Post

October 30, 2009

"The One-Minute Apologist": Paperback Errors Corrected

Next Post

March 19, 2010 Dave Armstrong: "Biblical Catholic Answers for John Calvin"

Browse Our Archives

Select a Category & Last Things About Me Anti-Catholicism Atheism & Agnosticism Baptism and Sacramentalism Bible and Tradition Blessed Virgin Mary Books by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis Calvinism & General Protestantism Catholic Apologetics Catholic Apologists Catholic conversion Catholic converts Christmas Church (Ecclesiology) Church History Conversion and Converts Development of Doctrine Eastern Orthodoxy Ecumenism & Christian Unity Eucharist & Liturgy Fathers of the Church French Translations G. K. Chesterton Hell Hell & Satan Hell & Satan & Last Things Heresies & Comparative Religion Holistic Health Inquisition & Crusades & Scandals James White Jews & Judaism & Old Testament John Calvin John Henry Newman Liberal / Modernist Theology Life Issues Literary Resume Lutheranism Mariology Martin Luther Music Orthodoxy Papacy & Infallibility Personal Page Philosophy & Science Political & Ethical & Moral Issues Protestant Persecution & Intolerance Protestantism Purgatory Purgatory & Penance Romantic & Imaginative Theology Saints & Purgatory & Penance Salvation Salvation & Justification Satan & Last Things Sexuality and Gender Issues Spanish Translations Traditionalism vs. Radical Catholic Reactionaries Traducciones al español / tradução para português Trinitarianism & Christology Uncategorized Videos

Select a Month October 2026 September 2026 August 2026 July 2026 June 2026 May 2026 April 2026 March 2026 February 2026 January 2026 December 2025 November 2025 October 2025 September 2025 August 2025 July 2025 June 2025 May 2025 April 2025 March 2025 February 2025 January 2025 December 2024 November 2024 October 2024 September 2024 August 2024 July 2024 June 2024 May 2024 April 2024 March 2024 February 2024 January 2024 December 2023 November 2023 October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 July 2023 June 2023 May 2023 April 2023 March 2023 February 2023 January 2023 December 2022 November 2022 October 2022 September 2022 August 2022 July 2022 June 2022 May 2022 April 2022 March 2022 February 2022 January 2022 December 2021 November 2021 October 2021 September 2021 August 2021 July 2021 June 2021 May 2021 April 2021 March 2021 February 2021 January 2021 December 2020 November 2020 October 2020 September 2020 August 2020 July 2020 June 2020 May 2020 April 2020 March 2020 February 2020 January 2020 December 2019 November 2019 October 2019 September 2019 August 2019 July 2019 June 2019 May 2019 April 2019 March 2019 February 2019 January 2019 December 2018 November 2018 October 2018 September 2018 August 2018 July 2018 June 2018 May 2018 April 2018 March 2018 February 2018 January 2018 December 2017 November 2017 October 2017 September 2017 August 2017 July 2017 June 2017 May 2017 April 2017 March 2017 February 2017 January 2017 December 2016 November 2016 October 2016 September 2016 August 2016 July 2016 June 2016 May 2016 April 2016 March 2016 February 2016 January 2016 December 2015 November 2015 October 2015 September 2015 August 2015 July 2015 June 2015 May 2015 April 2015 March 2015 February 2015 January 2015 December 2014 November 2014 October 2014 September 2014 August 2014 July 2014 June 2014 April 2014 March 2014 February 2014 January 2014 December 2013 November 2013 October 2013 September 2013 August 2013 July 2013 June 2013 April 2013 March 2013 February 2013 January 2013 December 2012 November 2012 October 2012 September 2012 August 2012 July 2012 June 2012 May 2012 April 2012 March 2012 February 2012 January 2012 December 2011 November 2011 October 2011 September 2011 August 2011 July 2011 June 2011 April 2011 March 2011 February 2011 October 2010 September 2010 August 2010 July 2010 April 2010 March 2010 December 2009 October 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 March 2009 February 2009 October 2008 September 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 May 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 October 2005 June 2005 April 2005 February 2005 July 2004 May 2004 April 2004

TAKE THE

Religious Wisdom Quiz